Metropoulos Forum

Hey everybody. Im looking to swap in a new OT for my reissue plexi and I'm having a hard time selecting the right one. The amp is plenty brite, I play blues so I want something thats really rich sounding and will have it fatten up with plenty of harmonics and overtones that jump out. I dont ever play metal or anything heavy really, Im more in the Jazz/Blues/Rock sounds like Hendrix, Derek Trucks, Cream type tones. I only play with single coils though so I dont have a humbucker to fatten things up. The only transformers Im aware of are the metro creations, and Mercury Magnetics, although people seem to mention multiple makes.

I dont exactly want to break the bank but I refuse to cut corners, I want to do it once and do it right. What would be a top notch, world class, pro choice?

Well contrary to what Mercury's marketing and pricing would have you believe, the Heyboer-built trannies from Metro and Marstran are priced great, built great and sound great and they are every bit the equal of the Mercury iron in quality. (They all may sound slightly different of course -- that's where only your ear can decide!!)

To beef up the sound you might try the Metro or Marstran 1202-132 clones, which are typical for many '67 amps; or even the Marstran 1202-119 which was used a little earlier than the 132. Both are Drake reproductions and usually have a little more low end beef than the later Dagnall type transformers and clones. You may want to check the mounting hole spacing on these if slotting or redrilling holes bothers you though, in case they aren't exactly the same (in fact, both the Drake repros above are 2" core trannies, while the Dagnalls and the tranny in your RI are 1.5" cores, so working the holes is almost guaranteed.)

Thanks for the response Flames, I wonder is it technically safe to run the larger 2 inch as far as output for the EL34s etc. Would I also have to have the biasing redone? I wonder if thered be enough space to allow the larger OT drop in without hitting any components.

To be honest Ive been seriously considering the 1.5 inch dagnall clone from metro. Im just holding myself back because Im playing the "what if" game with myself. Obviously we all want it perfect from the get go. It seems most people feel mercury magnetics are overpriced and brighter. Producers of other transformers have very amaturish looking websites which makes one feel uncomfortable spending money (especially being a broke college kid).

It's cool if you want to spend money on a transformer but I've worked on a couple of reissue Marshalls and in my opinion the transformers aren't that bad!!

I'd hate to see you spend hundreds on a tranny when all you need is $20 in parts from the Metro store to transform your amp into something better and closer to what you want. If you're capable of installing a transformer you should be able to swap a few caps and tubes...which is what I'd recommend before investing the big bucks.

You can take a 100W reissue and fatten it up just by setting the bias correctly, changing out the phase inverter caps (to .047 or .1), change the V1 cap to .022 (from .002), and cut out the bright cap(s). I'd also mod the input from split to shared cathode. Plenty of info is available on this forum.

In my opinion Strats sound like shite through the plexi reissues without the mods I've just listed...with those changes you can easily get great Hendrixy tones without the buzzy icepick nature of the stock plexi reissue...and all with the stock transformers.

You could upgrade a few caps and see if it does the trick first before investing in new iron.

-Just my 2 cents.

Urrr...just noticed you've already been told (pretty much what I just said)...listen man, listen!!!!!

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... highlight=

Shared cathode and phase inverter caps is the answer (I'd suggest the .047uF)!

The reissues CAN be made to sound fantastic with the stock iron!!!

Its been a very hard tone chasing journey. I did clip the brite cap and it was the best thing Ive done yet in getting rid of the ice pick harshness on channel 1. As far as modifying the values of the compenents internally, Im very cautious because A.) I have no idea what I'm doing but more importantly B.) I want to fatten the amp but I dont want it to have the effect of rolling the tone knob back on my strat.

Currently it truly lacks definition, it is so round sounding. Even rolling the treble and presence up it becomes sharper but retains its round characteristic. I feel like I am not experiencing the nuances of my guitars tone, but rather coloring it too much. Very much like having a tone knob on the guitar rolled back and I cant crack the tone open enough to experience the truest tone.

It only seems that the amp will bloom and begin to represent my strat when it is around 8 on the volume knob.
I love this amp, I know its in the right direction, but it needs mods.

Does it sound like the OT is the culprit?

While the OT swap could improve the definition issues, maybe the first thing to look at is the tubes at this point -- what tubes are you using? Some good NOS preamp tubes could be a big improvement over the stock ones (if they're still in there.)
As for the bright caps, while the stock value is way too big for many players and causes the large volume jump between 1 and 2 (along with the full bore treble and upper mids at that point) that's not to say that a smaller bright cap of 500pF or less may not be useful to you. What volume settings are you usually playing at?

I bought an NOS RCA 12ax7 for v1, theres the stock 12ax7 in v2 (chinese), and a Groove Tubes ECC83 in V3, Stock power tubes. I usually play anywhere from 3-8. Everytime I turn on the amp I start somewhat quiet, then keep getting louder because its the only way I can get it to open up better. Then I basically play for a little bit on 8 or so, and its so loud I stop after a bit. This is the daily cycle haha.

basile865 wrote:Its been a very hard tone chasing journey. I did clip the brite cap and it was the best thing Ive done yet in getting rid of the ice pick harshness on channel 1. As far as modifying the values of the compenents internally, Im very cautious because A.) I have no idea what I'm doing but more importantly B.) I want to fatten the amp but I dont want it to have the effect of rolling the tone knob back on my strat.

I'm not sure I get why you'd be cautious spending $17 on a few parts that could easily be put back to stock values but you're ready to spend the big money on a transformer

Also, I don't really know of many mods that would have an effect that drastic (like the tone knob on the Strat) other than maybe turning the treble and presence all the way down The mods others and myself have suggested (phase inverter and V1 caps, bright cap clip, tubes) will get you where you want to be tone-wise but aren't so drastic you're going to loose all your treble or anything. The cap values suggested are larger than stock which means you're letting more bass through (in addition to and without losing any of your existing treble).

basile865 wrote: Currently it truly lacks definition, it is so round sounding. Even rolling the treble and presence up it becomes sharper but retains its round characteristic. I feel like I am not experiencing the nuances of my guitars tone, but rather coloring it too much. Very much like having a tone knob on the guitar rolled back and I cant crack the tone open enough to experience the truest tone.

You have too much midrange/treble and not enough low-mids and bass in the equation.

basile865 wrote: It only seems that the amp will bloom and begin to represent my strat when it is around 8 on the volume knob.
I love this amp, I know its in the right direction, but it needs mods.

That's why I'd recommend installing the LR PPIMV while you're at it (so you can crank it above 8 at reasonable volumes)

basile865 wrote: Does it sound like the OT is the culprit?

NO

You can improve the tone with better tubes, mustard-type caps, and boutique transformers but you're not going to get "the sound" you're looking for with the Strat unless you tweak some cap values and wire it for shared cathode input. Just my opinion after modding a couple of reissue 100W heads, building my own '67ish 100W from scratch w/ Metro parts, experimenting with various value parts and A/Bing the results, and learning TONS of info from the cool and helpful people on this forum!

FWIW, I actually play a stock Strat w/ low output single coils through the Marshall so I know somewhat what I'm talking about. I'm not as into the EVH humbucker tones as the majority on this forum (not that there's anything wrong with that tone either).

I agree 100% that you can make drastic improvements to RI's for under $50 or so. But no matter how much you compensate for the frequency response and peaky upper mids, the stock OT will still be 2 dimensional. Only with an OT upgrade have I ever been able to make these amps take on that 3-D tone and feel.

Not trying to sell anything here, just sharing my experience.

VG

VelvetGeorge wrote:I agree 100% that you can make drastic improvements to RI's for under $50 or so. But no matter how much you compensate for the frequency response and peaky upper mids, the stock OT will still be 2 dimensional. Only with an OT upgrade have I ever been able to make these amps take on that 3-D tone and feel.

Not trying to sell anything here, just sharing my experience.

VG

But don't you think the transformer is the cart before the horse?

Although I'd never deny that improvements could be made with transformers I don't think they're anywhere near (unless the transformer is fried) the bang for the buck that you get with a couple of component changes...or the other potentially HUGE difference that you could get by changing speakers.

And I'm not trying to ruin a transformer sale for you either...I just think that the wise thing would be to do a couple of small tweaks and see if that does the trick first before shelling out the cash for new iron.

I just know that with the case of the 100W reissues I've worked on, and also with my JTM45 reissue they came to life with a couple of tweaks. Do they sound 100% vintage like your amps? Well, maybe not...but maybe that's not what everyone is looking for either (I personally hate JCM800s but they're all the rage now)...and maybe 85% "there" is good enough.

There's also the possibility that I might just like shit transformers and basile865 should ignore everything I'm typing...who knows?

FWIW, I have NO experience with the Metro or Mercury transformers whatsoever...my only basis of comparison is with actual vintage Marshalls as compared to the reissues...for all I know the Merc/Metro is an improvement over the real thing.

To be perfectly honest, I dont know enough about modding to do it myself.(drain the caps and etc to be safe). So I'd prob bring it to a tech, and have him install the parts. So this could end up a pain in the butt if I want it back to stock. Its not that Im jumping at dropping big money, its just that I have gotten a few other opinions that feel the OT swap is a completely crucial mod on these RI.

The other thing is that, I can get plenty of bass from this amp still too. I'd be worried that the shared cathode thing would possibly make it even rounder? I dont know. I think what its boiling down to is just to get rid of that roundness, and lack of articulation. Again I dont know, BillyBatz on here who is closest to the tone I'm searching for reccomends the OT swap, and now it seems george feels the same way. It is tough when I dont know squat and I get different opinions. Whichever route I choose, I totally appreciate everybody giving advice and also the fact that guitarmole is trying to have me save money and start small first. I guess its just that I know the OT will be an improvement and Im not sure that value changing and shared cathode would do it. All things to consider for sure.

Funny enough, its kinda like fenders are a little closer to what Im after. Like a twin or super reverb how they have the clear representation of the guitar. Maybe their circuitry has the values like guitarmole is talking about.

At the end of the day Ive got 200 dollars to make my RI step its game up.

I think first you have to decide which is the cart and which is the horse.

For 80% of players, a few tweaks is all that's needed to make them completely happy.

About 15% have more refined taste and/or original examples of these amps to compare the RI to.

The last 5% are just tonally obsessed IMO. These are the guys who scour Ebay for accurate components to build replicas with.

This is all just my opinion of course, and your mileage may vary. But based on these thoughts I agree that suggesting an OT to someone who just needs better tonal balance is putting the cart before the horse.

When I make my suggestions, I usually take into account if the person is inclined to work on the amp themselves. And do some tweaking to find out what they like.

george

Im all for trying the simple mods first except that, if you have to pay someone to do them its not necessarily a simple cheap thing to try either.
If you where close by Id do it for you no problem. Ill check the list of techs to see if you have anyone near you.

Its been hard relating to what you mean by 'round'. Thats the thing thats tough and Im not you so I cant say for sure.

I suggested first and foremost try out a cab with something other then those 75Wer speakers you use. What it sounds like to me is your compensating for a thin trebly amp by dialing it in to where most people here would consider bassy and thats why your getting that round sound. Even without the bright cap you say you never plug into just the bright channel. Thats been my problem ever since I had a RI. The classic tones from the 60s and 70s where all dialed in very trebly and they took it in stride from what I guess is a mixture of the fact taht they all had high end hearing damage, maybe used cotton for earplugs which cuts all high end, and the amps and speakers werent quite as anemic and harsh. With a strat I dial my amp in with the stock Lead values and the large bright cap in and the volume on 7 and dont sweat it.

If youve never played a cranked marshall they feel a lot different then any modern amp can prepare you for in a lot of ways.

I had no idea theres 2 bright caps. I clipped the one on the board in the c5 position. I hope that isnt the culprit of the roundness, although Ive since played 2 stock RI and I'm grateful its gone because with it there, that channel is literally unusable - the definition of ice pick.

As far as roundness let me do my best to describe I guess.

In a sense its similar to having the tone knob rolled back which I never use. It has an effect of covering your sound with a blanket - its not rolling off the highs but sheilding all frequencies more like.

The roundness is a very bold tone I'd say. Theres PLENTY of volume happening yet I feel like if I plugged a few strats in, theyd all sound relatively the same. Id like the amp to show more character I guess. Perhaps its a bit sterile? Too uniform, lack of character

Perhaps I need a lower value brite cap in there. With the original its icepick and with it removed completely its round. Whats value do you use dan and what may be a less severe value to try?

basile865 wrote:I had no idea theres 2 bright caps. I clipped the one on the board in the c5 position. I hope that isnt the culprit of the roundness, although Ive since played 2 stock RI and I'm grateful its gone because with it there, that channel is literally unusable - the definition of ice pick.

No you got the bright cap clipped. There are other caps you can clip to remove brightness but I have to believe theyll only hurt that roundness issue.

Perhaps I need a lower value brite cap in there. With the original its icepick and with it removed completely its round. Whats value do you use dan and what may be a less severe value to try?

Depends on the amp and the sound but in a 1959 setup for the BoG sound and clips I use the stock 5n, the one you cut out. Like I was saying its effect depends on how you run the amp. On 0-5 it is like an icepick. On 6-8 it mostly gives you the fully cranked sound but without the mud. Its like from 6 the mids and highs are cranked but as you turn it up you bring in the lows. Not exactly- 6 is still cleaner all around then 10 but you get my point. I keep the bright volume on 7-8ish, all the tones on 10 and the presence on 0.

To me 500p is almost brighter then 5n. It 'boosts' only highs while 5n boosts some mids for body. I like 500p for certain tones. Lower gain LP stuff but not with a strat and again not for anything lower then 6. I guess for volume settings to 5 Id probably use a 100p. That would be something to try and you can easily use mini jumper cables to just clip in a 100p cap or try others out.

To implement a bright cap thats a large value you really have to play at least on 7. Your cab will handle it. If its too much distortion try lowering the pups. Ive kept mine maybe 1/16" from the guard since I saw a closeup of the black strat.