the vintage tremolo tuning thread

[Doug H]

Have you tried using threaded inserts on the neck?

I think regardless of having a truss rod that the pressure variable of using a tremolo could have potential tuning issues related to a slight movement in the neck pocket. I think having a mechanical aid there to ensure a tight fit and zero movement rather than relying on wood alone would be a cheap upgrade and would rule out one slight possibility.

Also ensuring the screw holes in the body are tight also would be a good idea.
I think if a screw had room to breathe in there it could cause some problems also.

Best just to dowel and redrill everything again when doing this.

Was just looking at that last night. I'm going to try and do this, mostly from a tone / fun point of view, but it can't hurt the stabillity either, cool.

[Tone Slinger]

I've tried floyd Rose equipped guitars on several different necks (mainly single acting truss rods) over the year's. They ALL stayed in tune near perfectly. I do not think the neck moving cause's any tuning issue, as long as it is to, well built Fender standard's, concerning the neck being bolted on correctly , and a 'tight' neck pocket.

A floyd simply acknowledges that tuning instability, while using a tremelo , happens directly behind the pressure (friction) point of the saddle,and behind the friction point of the nut. Mr. Rose didn't ponder what was going on in regards to the sustain block or the tuning machines, for example. He simply took care of many variables in one fell swoop.

The down side of his design is that it just doesn't have the resonant qualities of other designs that keep string length behind a point and beyond a point (like Gibson and Fender for example).

If you haven't used them yet, I'd recommend the locking Sperzel staggered tuners (the posts get shorter from the low e to the high e) This eleviates the need for string tree's, which, regardless of material and lube, are still an extra friction point.

I also would try threading a short machine screw down the hole of the block to make contact with the ball end . If you are thinking your tuning problem is at the bridge, then this might help.

[Roe]

Usually I can get a vintage tremolo to work fairly well if I do quite a bit of setup and maintainance. usually, the problem is the string threes and the nut.

[Doug H]

If you haven't used them yet, I'd recommend the locking Sperzel staggered tuners (the posts get shorter from the low e to the high e) This eleviates the need for string tree's, which, regardless of material and lube, are still an extra friction point.

I also would try threading a short machine screw down the hole of the block to make contact with the ball end . If you are thinking your tuning problem is at the bridge, then this might help.

I thought about something like that, some kind of insert to bind the string to the hole. I haven't come up with an idea I liked that was convenient enough. A block that had a spring loaded flipping mechanism that pinched the strings near the string holes would ne a cool thing. I wonder how much it would effect tone? Something cool to make if I had a machine shop in my basement.

y I like the staggered tuner idea, one thing I think is relevent is that it's a whole system. the sting trees might only represent a small amount of friction, in my case anyhow, they are graphite. But the less frictyion OVERALL, the more the string is going to want to return to pitch. I think also that kuje even iuf your "D" string isn't a problem string, having less friction on it, just means the overall system will have a stronger pull back to pitch, having some benifit to the problem strings.

[Doug H]

Usually I can get a vintage tremolo to work fairly well if I do quite a bit of setup and maintainance. usually, the problem is the string threes and the nut.

I think they tend to be the main culprit for the really big problems.

[jz]

I had a Squier strat in the 80's - the trem was useless because of tuning issues - the only thing I did was replace the tuners with a staggered sperzel locking set (removed string trees) and it stayed in tune - highly recommended.

[Tone Slinger]

Yeah, there seems to be a certain amount tuning instability concerning the string 'moving' at the post. Also, the alignment of the string,going up past the nut to the tuners is also a problem. It should have no angle, 'cause if it does, then more friction is present at the nut. Most modern Fender's have the straight alignment, but not one's prior to the last few years.

Order neck's without the tuner holes drilled, to ensure this feature(straitness) by having it done or doing it yourself.

[leadguy]

This is what I've found out so far.

I can get a vintage trem divebombing and coming back to tune on all of my 5 vintage style trem guitars which all have different vintage style bridges (Fender 1983 brass "The Strat", Wilkinson, Squier etc) and different tuners and different nuts.

All 5 of my vintage style trem guitars have the same problem and that is the G string going flat after a 2 or 3 fret bend and a dive brings the G string back into tune.

I know how to fix it by installing a Hipshot Tremsetter Tremolo Stabilizer.

What happens is that when the G string is bent the trem goes into a small (unbalanced) dive movement and when the G string is released the trem doesn't pull back to it's original position because the small (unbalanced) dive movement doesn't produce enough snap for the springs to snap back properly and so the G string ends up flat. A dive brings the G into tune because with a dive there is more snap in the springs to bring it back to tune.

The tremsetter nudges the tremolo block and springs (and therefore strings) back to where they were after doing string bends.

I think the problem is having the strings inside the tremolo block and the tremolo block position (and therefore the strings) is mainly determined by the springs.

With a Floyd I don't get the G string going flat after a bend because on a Floyd the strings are decoupled from the tremolo block and the springs, and are locked into the saddles.

I've also got a Floyd with a behind the nut string lock and the nut slots don't make any tuning difference. Whether it's a Floyd and a string lock at the nut or a Floyd with a behind the nut string lock, they both stay in tune so I think nut issues are not the problem.

I've tried roller saddles and the G flat bend still happens.
So locking tuners and roller nuts and roller saddles won't fix the spring tremolo block string bend flat tuning problem but a tremolo stabilizer will.

The best fix I've found so far without using a tremolo stabilizer is to tune the G string a bit sharp so it doesn't go that flat on bends and the G string bounces around between being a bit flat or a bit sharp depending on whether string bends or dives are being done.

[JimiJames]

evh100 posted this before and I thought it was impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Oyc6slYRc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mac's link on Fender's website and this technique in the vid seems to be the perfect solution.
I've tried roller nut's and roller string tree's with success. They do work very well.
I come from the stock floating trem school so this vid hits home.

[leadguy]

Get the old tuner out and tune up. Once the tuning is stable (might take a while), do a dive and check the open G string tuning, then do a 3 fret bend on the G string 7th fret (D) up to F and then release the bend, then check the open G string tuning, then do a dive and check the open G string tuning.

What happens?

[Doug H]

I think I hinted at it earlier in this thread, maybe not specifically about the g string, but ya, that's the baby. The difference in what you described on the G string is basically the stability of a trem. Most, if not all of the wonder vids I've seen don't dip and bend in the same segment.

[Tone Slinger]

Yeah, I saw that Frudua vid, and picked up a few pointers, but, although I see his point about NOT having the string travel far into the block, I still think that the less the string travels into the block, the LESS TONE you will get.

I just get my new build (Very '78 style Franky, minus the stripes and 90 % of the pick guard) back. It stay's 90 % in tune, as compared to the floyd's 95 % .

I see the point about the bridge moving a hair ,causing the 'flat' g on big bends. I fixed that by making sure that the block, tremelo base plate, as well as the open 'slots' in the bridge saddles, make NO contact with the string. Obviously the string is gonna touch the block, but what you do is lessen the angle the string see's.

If you take a string off the strat, you will see that it makes an 'L' shape, as it fits into the block. This gives you an extra friction point. The first angle is at the base plate, and second is at the top of the saddle.


You roll out the top of the block, along with widening the base plate hole, so the string doesnt touch it. The holes in the middle f the saddles can also be a problem, depending on how forward or back they are moved.


The string should only contact the block, saddle, nut and tuning post.


I have NO problem with the g string at all now. I bend up, while simultaniously dive the bar, and vice'verca. This used to be a big problem, with going flat. Not anymore.

I will say, that brass (on mine, ala '78 Franky) isnt the best material for a nut, as far as LESS friction is concerened. Graphite and bone are better. But the clarity and attack one gets (the whole theory of the nut only affecting open notes is BS. It affects the whole sound, in an 'anchoring' kind of way) Some times 'after a dive' the strings may go VERY, VERY slightly sharp, noticable on a strobe, but not really to the ears. This is 100% at the nut. If the angle is off, as far as the straightness of the string as it passes the nu to the tuning post, then you have more friction, regardless of how well the nut is cut. Having a perfectly cut nut, along with straight allighnment is key (obviously 'perfection' is only a word )

I do use a little lube, but I am totally impressed with this new build of mine. It Very nearly rivals a floyd in the tuning department. And like a floyd, even when there is a slight tuning shift, it is NEVER in that 'TOTALLY OBVIOUS' Hendrix way. Very even tuning at ALL times along the strings, and I m a total bender who uses 9 guage strings. I tend to knock everything other than floyds out. I think I'm finally far enough along with 'FENDER' 6screw trems to actually have confidence in a all out no pulling punches live representation of my playing style, instead of sort of 'Playing to the guitar's deficiencies', like knowing the g on a Gibson will go flat after a big bend, or that a Fender trem. will let you down when doing a combination bend, dive, vibrato combo.

I'm tying to get some clips and/or vids up.

[leadguy]

Jeff Becks Tremolo

http://www.ainian.com/PRIOR.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JB likes - 3/64" on the Treble side, and 5/64" on the bass side (and a very straight neck adjustment) string gauge - NINES

Pickup Heights = 1/16'' on both sides
String Height = 4/64'' measured at the 17th fret
Bridge Height = 3/32'' - 1/8'' from the body
Relief at 7th Fret = .012''
Nut Action = .020''

3 Tremolo springs in a triangle config from the claws 3 centres to the outsides and middle of the tremolo block.

SRV's Tremolo

http://www.tangledupinblues.com/setup.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This page contains detailed information on Stevie Ray Vaughan’s guitar setup. The information comes directly from the article “Supernova Strats” by Dan Erlewine as published in February 1990 issue of Guitar Player magazine. That issue featured Stevie Ray Vaughan and Jeff Beck together in one interview as they were touring in tandem at the time. The Supernova Strats article actually contains details on Jeff Beck’s setup also, but for the purpose of this page I have included only the Stevie Ray Vaughan related information.
In November 1989 longtime Guitar Player magazine repairs and modifications columnist Dan Erlewine had the chance to go over Stevie’s guitars with a fine toothed comb. He spent the day with Rene Martinez, Stevie’s guitar tech and compiled a detailed report on virtually all aspects of the setup on the guitars Stevie was touring with at the time.

The guitars
Stevie’s guitars were all pre-’63 model Fender Stratocasters, except for “Charley” (outfitted with the Danelectro “lipstick tube” pickups, it was made from kit parts at Charley’s Guitar Shop in 1984). They all have names, too: Number One, Red, Butter Scotch, Charley, and Lennie. The only significant change from the stock on these Strats has been the addition of 5-way switches and a good coat of shielding paint in the control cavities. Number One, the beat-up sunburst that we all know, is Stevie’s main squeeze.

Neck adjustment
With all the guitars, neck straightness (or relief) is the first thing I checked, sighting down the fingerboard. A fingerboard should either be dead flat or have a slight up-bow, known as relief, in the direction of the strings’ pull. Stevie’s guitars had approximately .012" of relief around the 7th and 9th frets, and then leveled out for the remainder of the board.

String gauge
Stevie tunes his guitar down a half-step and uses GHS Nickel Rockers measuring .013, .015, .019 (plain), .028, .038, and .058. On this particular day, Rene had substituted an .011 for the high E to keep down the sore fingers that blues bends can cause. Rene changes strings every show for each guitar that gets played.

Fretwire
If you’re trying to evaluate action, it’s nice to know what size and shape of fretwire is used on any guitar. Number One’s frets measure .110" wide by .047" tall. These frets would have started out at .055" tall when they were new, and were probably either Dunlop 6100 or Stewart-MacDonald 150 wire.

String height
I measured the distance from the underside of the strings to the top of the fret at the 12th fret on both E strings. Rene Martinez describes “I set up all of Stevie’s the same: 5/64" on the treble E string and 7/64" at the bass E.”

Fingerboard radius
Knowing the radius of the fingerboard can help in setting up a comfortable bridge saddle height and curve. Stevie’s Number One was somewhat flatter than the vintage 7-1/4" radius. Rene has refretted the neck at least twice, and in the process the fingerboard has evolved into a 9" or 10" radius in the upper register. This isn’t the result of a purposeful attempt to create a compound radius, which allows string-bending with less-noting out; it just happened.

Bridge saddles
Stevie’s Number One wants to break high E and B strings at the saddle every chance she gets. Rene showed me why the strings break, and how he takes care of the problem: As a string breaks out of the vintage Strat tremolo block/bridge top plate, it “breaks” or contacts, the metal directly; this causes a slight kink that weakens the string. With the bridge saddles removed, Rene uses a Dremel Moto-Tool to grind the holes edge until the lip is smooth and gradual, and any binding is eliminated.

Number One uses vintage replacement saddles (the originals wore out long ago), and they’re not all alike — some have a shorter string slot than others. The high E and B strings may contact the front edge of this string clearance slot as they rise toward the “takeoff point” at the saddle’s peak. The kink formed by the contact stretches into the saddle peak during tuning, and breaks right at the crown. Rene elongates the slot, again by grinding, and then smoothes any rough metal edges. Finally, he slides a 5/8"-long piece of plastic tubing (insulation from electrical wire) over each string to protect it from the metal “break points.” He uses the heaviest piece of tubing he can get that still fits down the tremolo/block hole. Even with this, the high strings still cut through the plastic quickly (sometimes in one set), and when they do, the strings break. Rene plans to try a Teflon wire insulation if he can find the right size.

Nuts
Stevie’s Number One, Lennie and Charley have standard Fender-style nuts, but Rene makes them from bone. Stevie prefers the sound of bone, although for studio work he had Rene make brass nuts for Scotch and Red.

Tremolo setup
Vaughan’s standard vintage tremolo uses all five springs. Rene prefers the durability of the stainless steel Fender tremolo bars. He puts a small wad of cotton at the bottom of the tremolo-block hole to keep the bar from over-tightening and becoming hard to remove if it breaks. He emphasizes the importance of lubricating all the moving parts of the tremolo system, preferring a powdered graphite-and-grease mixture (the grease holds the graphite in place where it’s needed). He lubricates everything that moves: mounting screws/plate; all string “breaks” and contact points, including the saddle peaks; where the springs attach to the block and claw; the nut slots; and the string trees.

Pickup height
As a reference point I laid a precision steel straightedge along the frets for making the measurement. Stevie’s pickups were raised fairly high. I measured from the straightedge to the polepiece tops: On the treble side, the bridge pickup touched the straightedge, and the middle almost touched the straightedge, and the neck pickup was 1/16" away. The bass side measured 1/32" at the bridge pickup, 1/16" at the middle, and 1/32" at the neck.

Tuning machines
We’ve covered about everything except tuners, and there’s nothing secret here. Stevie Ray’s tuners are all originals, and each has three full string winds to get the best angle at the nut.

[leadguy]

Tremsetter explained by it's inventor.

"The main reason I designed the TremSetter," says Borisoff "was to get away from the equilibrium, or balance, of the strings and springs controlling whether a guitar's in tune or not. The standard tremolo is like a bathroom scale, you get on the scale twice and get two different readings. Or if you stand on the scale and shake, like shaking or bending a string, you'll make the dial flutter on both sides of your actual weight.

This is what happens to a tremolo bridge when you bend notes, play certain notes with a strong attack, or even hit certain open strings. You upset the balance, and the tremolo flutters back and forth. The TremSetter's like a car's shock absorber, it stabilizes the tremolo."

[Doug H]

I can't see the trem setter fixing my g string. Arms usually have two resting points, a high one and a low one. You have to return to the same point you tuned to, that's not a problem.

Tone Slinger
Gotoh has a bridge out that goes straight from the string end to the saddle. It's not steel and the strings aren't very deep into the block. I've though about drilling this out on my faceplate and block, both cheapish ones btw.

So you're saying to widen that out to reduce friction into the block. I've though about stuff along similar lines, removing the contact all together like the gotoh bridge, but wouldn't this create a steep angle into the saddle when done to a typical trem? Wilkinson has staggered holes on one of their blocks to keep this from happening.

I've been filing the edge on the holes in the plate to try to smooth out that fruction point, if you saw some success make the angle there less I'm on board lol.

With my older bridge I had the g string down to only a few cents, but it had shallower holes in the block and I had drilled the G and low E up even closer to the top.