the vintage tremolo tuning thread

[leadguy]

From what I understand about the tremsetter, it returns after bends or dives to the same resting point.
It's like a shock absorber/spring that replaces the middle spring and a hole needs to be drilled in the middle of the tremolo body cutout behind the claw.
I've got one but I havn't installed it yet.

I've got a Fender System 1 tremolo http://www.wammiworld.com/System%201.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , WTF is that, well it's an old early 80s two point roller saddle locking intonation bridge designed for no string bridge contact between saddle and block. It has elongated block to saddle string pass through holes.
The System 1 also comes with a behind the nut string lock.

I have just used it for a while with and without the behind the nut string lock and the G string bend and dive variation was still there but only a few cents probably because the System 1 bridge eliminates any block to saddle contact problems and saddle groove contact problems (roller saddles). Also the strings pass through the tremolo block and rest on the fine tuners instead of inside the tremolo block. Not as good as a Floyd but better than most no mod vintage bridges regarding tuning.

[Tone Slinger]

Yeah, I would first dremel or file the string holes in the top of the block,where it connects to the top plate. I angle this so that the holes 'rim', goes as far as it can, all the way to the blocks edge. I then file the base plate so that the string doesnt touch it at all, on it's way to the saddle.

This does slightly increase the one angle at the saddle, but it eleviates one 'huge' problem, cause the first friction point on a Fender (base plate to saddle), along with the second (saddle), work togather as the string glides along them, while diving the bar. The bridge goes down and up during tremelo use. The first angle grabs while the other one binds, causing the string (particuarly the g and b) to return flat.

A total 'redesign' of the vintage 6 screw would fix all this, as well as take care of what Wilkinsons 'angle minded' block doesnt. Depending on intonation requirements those blocks can give the g no choice but to make contact. The string holes in the block just need to be drilled a little further back at the bottom, making a incline back to the top. This would further eliminate friction.

[Doug H]

right, so if the plate has way less friction, the bend on the saddle might ne magotiable. It's funny, cause in filing away at my last plate trying to get the plate hoel smooth, I ended up working the hole prettu close to the saddle. Now that G on that bridge was quite close divbe to bend. I thought I had overworked the hole and getting a new bridge and being carefull not to elongate the hole too much would be even better, given what I'd learned hacking up the first plate. But in the end I might have been undoing one of the things that was keeping the G string on the first bridge in line.

My test is to play the intro to ATBL. I typically end up tuned to the dive return, so it stays in tune through the dips on the rising riff. But the big g string bender in the last phrase before the verse starts will pull it flat, How "beated" the G triad sounds in the verse is the test.

[Tone Slinger]

After intently listening to Ed's pre floyd tremelo work, I've noticed that he would go a little sharp while using the bar, but not bending, just bar use. He would tend to go a little flat with big left hand bends. Ed ALWAY's would do a little 'dip' with the bar to correct this. Just a quick little 'wang'. This would correct any tuning drifting in one fell swoop.

Like mentioned here on the forum's 3 or 4 years ago, Ed would use these little bar dips/wangs in creative spots, making them seem like they were supposed to be there, when in fact it was to bring his guitar back in tune. ATBL is a great example of Ed using the bar before the verse("I heard the news baby,etc") to correct any possibility of being out of tune. Those high e and b notes hit togather at the third fret after the initial am mutes were nearly ALWAY's in tune because Ed would throw the dip/wang in there or hit a harmonic and do the same.

Ed's actual playing style was influenced by him having to use the bar in this manner for tuning stability.


My current strat build is the best for staying in tune using a Fender 6 screw, that I have had yet (I got the tuner holes custom drilled 'straight' to the naked eye), BUT, when it does drift, this quick little dip/wang brings it back everytime.

I prefer Ed's Fender tremelo playing to his floyd for several reasons, like the more fuller resonant tone, and the actual limitations of the actual lowering of pitch, as compared to a floyd. I think Ed used his left hand more with the fender, whereas he really got more into using the left hnd on the bar TOO much after switching to the floyd.

[Doug H]

I've suspected as much abour ed and the constant whammy use. I don't know where he squeezes it in on atbl, the lastg g string bender slides down the frets at the end. I haven't had much luck transparently squeezing on e in there. I've tried doing it on the fret slide but I'm not sure it will sound right.

[leadguy]

I'm still experimenting with different vintage tremolo setups.
I think the way to go is to try to minimize the G string bend/G string dive tuning difference.
I don't know if the G string bend/dive difference can be totally eliminated without using a tremolo stabilizer like the tremsetter for instance.

Going from the VH1 book and memory, I think the ATBL bend intro to the first verse is only a 1 fret bend with a couple of quick mini dives while sort of holding the bend and then a slide down and then it's the Am arpeggio verse riff.

If the guitar is minimized for the G bend and dive tuning difference then I think it's quite possible to be pretty well in tune for the verse after the bend/mini dives.

Top winding strings around the tuners.
Filing the block and bridge string pass through holes and maybe elongate them.
Checking the nut and string tees (do a dive and check the strings with a tuner and then wiggle the strings lightly just behind the nut and then check the strings again with a tuner for any differences in tuning caused by the nut).
Using tightish springs (usually 3 springs in a triangle formation which Ed also used)
Removing the 4 inside screws of the bridge and just leave the 2 outer screws as 2 pivots to eliminate any bridge/inside loosened screw hangups.

The intro bar movements while holding the bend should bring it pretty well back in tune for the verse.

I would tend to tune the G just a fraction sharp so that it then bounces around between being slightly sharp and slightly flat depending on bends or dives.


I found out that the G string bend tuning problem was worse with these roller saddles I've got that have a wide string channel/groove in them so a bend would cause side movement in the roller saddle channel/groove.

So I think the saddle and it's groove play a big part in the G bend problem.

The G string bend is a different string motion for the bridge to handle as opposed to a bar dive.
The saddle groove is taking most of the sideways string tension caused by the bend that also sets the tremolo block into a small dive motion at the same time because of the string bend tension.

The bent string is pivoting around the saddle groove and when the bend is released the tremolo block tries to go back to it's original position but the tremolo block's ending position will depend on how well the bent string unpivots itself in the saddle groove.

[Doug H]

ya, I think yer right about the bender at the end of the intro, it's not a big bend and there seems to be a couple dips in there too.

[leadguy]

I decided to see what happens when the tremolo block and the block string holes and the bridge string holes are bypassed so I took the ball ends off the end of the strings and secured the end of string loops around the back of the saddles and intonation screws, so the tremolo block etc was bypassed.

I tuned up and the flat bent G string was still happening so I think there is really no way to eliminate it without a tremolo stabilzer.
Just maybe tune the G string a bit sharp and after a solo with G string bends do a quick ghost dive to bring the G string back into tune.

[Tone Slinger]

The only system I've found that keeps tuning problems from happening, no matter the playing technique (super bends, whammy dive's jerks, etc) is an original Floyd Rose. Even that, isnt 100% because the string itself tends to 'change' along its length. Like on certain fret area's, like say the 12th fret to 15th fret 'e' position. The string gets wore down, thus creating a thinner mass, letting things get bent flat.

A Floyd fares VERY well, as long as you change the strings accordingly.

I used to have that flat g string problem, but not anymore, because even when I do 'purposely' try to WAY overbend it, and it goes a hair flat, that quick little tremelo 'dip' brings it back perfectly. Its funny, I never get the 'g' string out of tune when I'm playing, ONLY when I am purposely trying to .

I think that the tuner can cause a string to go 'flat', though most of the tuner/nut combo cause 'sharps' to happen.

If all has been exhausted, like all the 'defriction' mods along with lubing the contact area's (all of them !), as well as the straight 'string over the nut to the tuner's' ,along with proper string wrap/connection to the tuner post and/or locking tuner's, then by all means try the tremelo stabalizer. I havent, but if it works, let us know.

[Doug H]

I decided to see what happens when the tremolo block and the block string holes and the bridge string holes are bypassed so I took the ball ends off the end of the strings and secured the end of string loops around the back of the saddles and intonation screws, so the tremolo block etc was bypassed.

INteresting, what's the setup at the neck? I shodl try the same test, I'm under the impression all my tuning woes are at the bridge at this point. I'm building a superstrat with a floyd. I'm gonna throw my existing neck on it first though with just a graphite nut and tuners, see how that and the FR bridge fairs.

[yladrd61]

Yeah setting up a vintage trem floating with the center 4 screws slightly backed off and lubricating all the contact points definitely helps to reduce or eliminate going out of tune. But like Jimi said "Cowboys are the only ones who play in tune, and we are not in cowboy land are we ?"

[planetjimi]

I was just watching this yngwie video and thought of this thread. Looks like he uses the Frudua method. Right before he starts playing again he gives his bar a little dip. Starts at 0:56.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhGHafh_ ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Roe]

I abused my strat at a jam last friday and got compliments for keeping it in tune. Trem was floating and I use nut sause. String three is only used on the high e (b string doesn't need it on this guitar)

[Tone Slinger]

Yeah, I get INSANE tuning stability from my vintage tremelo's. I feel very PROUD of myself (and I NEVER feel proud of myself) for not giving up on my quest in keeping the vintage 6 screw Fender/style tremelo in tune. Having that RESONANCE and TONE under your finger tips was such a love/hate thing, considering how using the bar totally wrecked the functionality of playing the thing in the first place.

I then discovered the early EVH set up style, that Frudua demonstrated. I got tired of having to dip the bar to 'reset' the tuning after going flat from ANY left hand bend of more than a step.

I pretty much know EXACTLY what to do to conquer any of these problems .

[yngwie308]

Have you tried using threaded inserts on the neck?

I think regardless of having a truss rod that the pressure variable of using a tremolo could have potential tuning issues related to a slight movement in the neck pocket. I think having a mechanical aid there to ensure a tight fit and zero movement rather than relying on wood alone would be a cheap upgrade and would rule out one slight possibility.

Also ensuring the screw holes in the body are tight also would be a good idea.
I think if a screw had room to breathe in there it could cause some problems also.

Best just to dowel and redrill everything again when doing this.

Was just looking at that last night. I'm going to try and do this, mostly from a tone / fun point of view, but it can't hurt the stabillity either, cool.

The Yngwie Malmsteen method of brass inserts with machine screw neck mounting, originally to stabilize the change from three bolt mount to four, places great stability on the neck/body obviously but this transfers through to the vintage style trem.
My YJM a MK II, pre bullet truss rod end and machine screw mount had a dead stable tremolo, though many were changing to the Wilkinson's on the Malmsteen forum, mostly due to the string spacing, high E string issue, but nonetheless..
I think Beck has proved that a stock style design is inherently stable with his floating method.
On my Hamer SS-3 the local luthier I took it to, he opened the body holes to the screw exact diameter, saying that if the screws threaded through the body as well as the neck it would introduce problems, is this not true?
Even the brass Charvel type vintage trems are desirable.
yngwie308