Metropoulos Forum

Ok Im wanting to build a guitar here is there a major difference between swamp ash and hard ash???? I was told by a seller of swamp ash no there is not a huge tonal difference true or not??


Hey Rokstah I took the plunge man, I went over to WCR( I have been talking to him for years now) and finally bought a pup off him, 160.00 darkburst Alnico II after hearing your clip I was sold!!
TONE

IloveMyMarshall wrote:Ok Im wanting to build a guitar here is there a major difference between swamp ash and hard ash???? I was told by a seller of swamp ash no there is not a huge tonal difference true or not??


Hey Rokstah I took the plunge man, I went over to WCR( I have been talking to him for years now) and finally bought a pup off him, 160.00 darkburst Alnico II after hearing your clip I was sold!!
TONE

HUGE difference between swamp ash and hard ash. Swamp ash is typically much lighter in weight, and more resonant, or "acoustic" in tone quality. Hard ash is a lot like maple. Heavy, and lots of sustain, and harmonics, but not quite as much as maple. Its really apples and oranges, but swamp ash is generally more desirable. Hard ash was used a lot on mid '70's strats and teles, when Fenders had that gross, thick urethane finish on them. If you were leaning towards hard ash, you might want to consider maple instead. Its a lot easier to finish (no grain filling on maple, LOTS of grain filling on either kind of ash), and again, sounds similar to hard ash, but IMHO, overall, maple sounds better than hard ash. Here is a description from Warmoth Guitar Products. http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/o ... ywoods.cfm

I would use alder for a strat, regardless of Eddie's being ash.

Hey thxs for the replies!!! Im really not worried about looks more then Im looking for tone is most important!! So swamp ash is ligher however thinner in sounding? Im looking for that Thump from the wood with huge sustain/harmonics the whole tens yards. I order the mother of all pups now I need woodage!! I have found Swamp all over the place hard ash Im not finding..
I have the neck, now need body, alder I hear will not get me where I want to go tho?? If that was the case I would buy strat cheaper model with alder..


Hey off topic and of you cats seen riffguy over on youtube yet?? This mother has got some serious monster marshall crunch and chops out of his SG!! Whats that made out of mahagony?

Thxs
Tone

IloveMyMarshall wrote:Hey thxs for the replies!!! Im really not worried about looks more then Im looking for tone is most important!! So swamp ash is ligher however thinner in sounding? Im looking for that Thump from the wood with huge sustain/harmonics the whole tens yards. I order the mother of all pups now I need woodage!! I have found Swamp all over the place hard ash Im not finding..
I have the neck, now need body, alder I hear will not get me where I want to go tho?? If that was the case I would buy strat cheaper model with alder..


Hey off topic and of you cats seen riffguy over on youtube yet?? This mother has got some serious monster marshall crunch and chops out of his SG!! Whats that made out of mahagony?

Thxs
Tone

No, I would definitly not call swamp ash thin sounding, actually its the opposite. I think its nice and warm sounding, just not as bright as hard ash, or maple. Actually, both of those woods would tend to sound thinner than swamp ash. And you're right as far as SG's are concerned--95% of them are all mahogany. Tone slingers suggestion is a good one--alder has a really nice balance of harmonics, warmth, and sustain, and its easy to finish. No grain filling with alder, its just not quite as "pretty" as ash if you're using a see-thru finish. Its not BAD, it just does not have any interesting grain patterns like either kind of ash, or a figured maple. Plain (unfigured) maple is kinda the same thing as alder, looks wise.

Fillmore's exactly right about the grain patterns in these woods. Ilovemymarshall, I tell ya, Back when Ed got that supposidly real heavy ash body, that was the mainstay of Fender ( for 70's strats, the lighter weighted ones are more desired), cause the natural as well as alot of the solid colored ones were heavy ash. Smaller companies (Boogie bodies, Charvel) followed suit with price and availability of this wood being great then. In my opinion, for that frequency range that many Ed, Lynch, De Martini influenced players gravitate to, Alder is the top choice. From listening to lots of live clips of Ed's, I think that his Franky sounded better without the floyd. For his post 80' floyd rose type tone, I think his 5150 Kramer sounded better than his franky (franky w/floyd that is) . I base this on the clips from '84,which has better tone than his 81-mid 83 tour tones. Alot has to do with amps/set-up, but still. I would wager that if you built your strat of ash, and later out of curiosity, built one with alder, that you would like the alder one better. Over the last while, I've noticed that my ash warmoth isnt quite as good as I thought. Compared to others alder homebrews. A certain width and warmth are missing in ash wood.

Maybe Ed's tone isnt what your going for. I would advise going down to your Guitar Center, and playing a few strats. Sure, most will have all single coils, but you can still get an idea. Play a few known alder models and a few ash models. I think youll find that alder distorts with a fuller, warmer tone, and that the ash will sound brittle and feeble in comparison. Fillmore is right about the tone of ash. It all sounds similar, only the heavier it gets the brighter and less resonant it will sound.

Thxs to both of ya and yes Eds 84 tonage is exactly what Im shooting for! To me is his best besides of course Vh1, but my god guys what happened after 1984?? Its like ed said F it! He created this monster tone and ditched it why?? Was he bored with it?


Anyways lots of great tones off that 1984 album and tunes, like the non comercial Girl gone bad and House of Pain now thats the tone I desire!
The only gent I heard copy identical to it was M landau and actually had to listen over and over I thought it was Ed LOL

Thanks I think Im going to try both and see, I was thinking Alder wood doesnt fender make squiers out this wood?

Why is it the floyd sucks the tone of the axe? Is it Im setting her up incorrectly? I tried a couple of ways Floater No no that completely asses the tonage sounding thin as tin! Flat to the body better but still played a non floyd tone was different, same pup!

Guess I might just go back to old school stock trem/ no dive boming lol not needed tone is more important!

Thank you
TONE

I'm not sure about alder being used in squire's. I do know that most Fender's from the 50's - 60's used alder almost exclusively, as well as half or more of the 70's as well. Like Jimijames said, alder just sounds right for strats. Ed's Kramer's were alder, I'm pretty sure, cause thats what Kramer was using in thier top of the line Pacers and Baretta's. Some of Kramer's other woods were Poplar (my second fav.) and Basswood. They even used plywood. It's funny how in interviews back early on, Ed said charvel used exotic type woods, whereas Fender used 'cheap' Alder. Ed ended up with Alder and then Basswood.

Alder, and poplar sound best to me, as far as strat tone. Mahogany is also very good, but is amost too warm. It seems to lose a little 'quickness' or immediate attack, in the sound, although it is still very good sounding. Ash and maple have the 'quickest return rate' so to speak. The attack is very quick and apparent , to a fault. These woods (ash, maple) have very very little warmth.

I have alway's had a love/hate relationship with a Floyd Rose. They stay in tune great, but essentially destroy tone.

1) Too much metal mass. Unwanted brightness.

2) The strings are attached in the saddle, instead of going through a big metal block (Like Fender bridge) This messes up tension and other hard to explain sound attributes.

3) The bridge sits on two pivot points, instead of being attached to the body like a Fender bridge by 6 screws. This messes up the resonance and dynamics signifficantly. Even the new Fender American standard guitars use the 2 point tremelo. They sorta sound 'inbetween' a vintage style bridge and a Floyd.

4) The metal clamping nut. This also shortens the 'vibration' length, as well as , again ,over brightens the sound.

I grew up with floyds in the 80's, but bonded in the early 90's with vintage strat style guitars. The guitar that I got new in '84, which I stopped playing becase it had a pick-guard and single coils and no Floyd Rose, has been my main one since the early 90's, when I 'rediscovered' it. I had ben playing a Kramer Barreta and Charvel since '87. It's a '84 Tokai '56 reissue, that was black, then I stripped it, painted it and stripped it again. I never did get through all of the origional clear primer coat. It's had several different necks, and pick ups, but has always sounded great.

So, to stop my long windedness, I say if your gonna go for a tone like Ed's, only even better, dont use ash, even though that IS what Franky is made of (It would have sounded better if it was Alder). I would also use a vintage style tremelo bridge. A bone nut sounds best to me, but Ed used a brass nut (a little brighter). Work on keeping it in tune, or only use it for slight 'dips'. Pick songs where you can whammy (like outro solo's) anyway you want, and not have to come back into the rhythm figure and expose being out of tune by having to hit a power chord, which will tell immediatly on your tuning. Good luck with it.

Hey Toner thanks man!!! I agree with the floyds 100% they are a love hate relationship with myself!! But if ya dive bomb thats the only reason to have. Im using the bar in more of an expressive way tho as my playing his heading in to a whole new direction and Im exciting as hell, its called learning!! Brett Garsed type of style, legato jazz fusion and Im jsut starting to touch the surface with this. I have time to learn.

Back to the squier strat yea a rep told me they make then from alder?? So I dont know if its a cheaper version fo the wood or not, but I thought or Im going to try squier Fat strat strip her down.

Im getting rosewood neck this time around I have all maple and figured lets try something different and Im going to put that Alnico II darkburst in her and go from there! and change out the bridge for something more vintage that will fit her of course with tons of sustain, but if there are made out of alder why not saves me a few bucks on extra stuff pickguard toggle ecte ect and swap neck and pickup and set her up.

Ok thanks again for the reply!!!
TONE

I agree, save some dough. I am very 'opinionated' with my post's, it's just that I try to understand. A floyd equiped guitar made of ash or any other wood potentially can sound great. Most of my comments about this is real 'general'. On averages this is what I find. You are totally right about the tuning. I always have a locking trem guitar on hand to satisfy my whammy bar craving.

IloveMyMarshall wrote: Im using the bar in more of an expressive way tho as my playing his heading in to a whole new direction and Im exciting as hell, its called learning!! Brett Garsed type of style, legato jazz fusion and Im jsut starting to touch the surface with this. I have time to learn.

Take a listen to what Jeff Beck does with the trem.

IloveMyMarshall wrote:Why is it the floyd sucks the tone of the axe? Is it Im setting her up incorrectly? I tried a couple of ways Floater No no that completely asses the tonage sounding thin as tin! Flat to the body better but still played a non floyd tone was different, same pup!

I almost feel that putting together a guitar with a Floyd requires the entire concept of the finished product to be different than any other type of guitar. Its really hard to get away from the thinness that happens with a Floyd, so to me, you almost have to forget about trying to fatten the tone up, and exploit the assets that a Floyd equipped guitar has. What I mean by that is if I was putting a Floyd guitar together, I would use a fairly hard wood like mahogany, or alder (but not TOO hard, like maple), and install a pretty hot pickup, at LEAST a Duncan Custom, or hotter, maybe even a Super Distortion. This way, the harmonics, and inherent fatness of the pickup will really jump out (like EVH's set up), and will effectively "mask out", or make less noticeable, the lack of warmth that happens with a Floyd. To me, trying to get a guitar with a Floyd to sound as warm as a hardtail guitar (such as a LP), is an exercise in futility. The Floyd equipped guitar definitly can sound hot, and obviously is capable of things few other guitars can do, but side by side with a similarly equipped hardtail? No contest.

NY Chief wrote:

IloveMyMarshall wrote: Im using the bar in more of an expressive way tho as my playing his heading in to a whole new direction and Im exciting as hell, its called learning!! Brett Garsed type of style, legato jazz fusion and Im jsut starting to touch the surface with this. I have time to learn.

Take a listen to what Jeff Beck does with the trem.

Thats a given there!! Jeff Beck is the man!! Seen him live god gawd but one thing with him if he is on he is on when he is not hes not!! But yes he does some amazing stuff with the bar/tone.finger picking/harmonics all of it. I been listening to him along with holdsworth and Brett and a few others
Dont get me wrong I dive her I have to, right off the bat to get it out of my system LOL, I got my one axe floating man it sounds kewl I can flip her and she will make this ungodly and actually musical trill sound.
But I want to use her more for1/2 step bending into runs and more melodically speaking!!!

Tone Slinger wrote:I agree, save some dough. I am very 'opinionated' with my post's, it's just that I try to understand. A floyd equiped guitar made of ash or any other wood potentially can sound great. Most of my comments about this is real 'general'. On averages this is what I find. You are totally right about the tuning. I always have a locking trem guitar on hand to satisfy my whammy bar craving.

Oh yea Im going to try standard bar first, with brass nut, with this axe and Im going rosewood for change with the darkburst pup. Im going to try and not dive her and use limited if thats at all possible funny thing man, I took the bar off my floyd, I guess like a quit smoking type of analogy LOL I grabbed for the bar almost twenty times before said damn it the hell with this and put her back on!! LOL
Its hard to break that habit!!!

fillmore nyc wrote:

IloveMyMarshall wrote:Why is it the floyd sucks the tone of the axe? Is it Im setting her up incorrectly? I tried a couple of ways Floater No no that completely asses the tonage sounding thin as tin! Flat to the body better but still played a non floyd tone was different, same pup!

I almost feel that putting together a guitar with a Floyd requires the entire concept of the finished product to be different than any other type of guitar. Its really hard to get away from the thinness that happens with a Floyd, so to me, you almost have to forget about trying to fatten the tone up, and exploit the assets that a Floyd equipped guitar has. What I mean by that is if I was putting a Floyd guitar together, I would use a fairly hard wood like mahogany, or alder (but not TOO hard, like maple), and install a pretty hot pickup, at LEAST a Duncan Custom, or hotter, maybe even a Super Distortion. This way, the harmonics, and inherent fatness of the pickup will really jump out (like EVH's set up), and will effectively "mask out", or make less noticeable, the lack of warmth that happens with a Floyd. To me, trying to get a guitar with a Floyd to sound as warm as a hardtail guitar (such as a LP), is an exercise in futility. The Floyd equipped guitar definitly can sound hot, and obviously is capable of things few other guitars can do, but side by side with a similarly equipped hardtail? No contest.

Its really hard to get away from the thinness that happens with a Floyd, so to me, you almost have to forget about trying to fatten the tone up,


Now thats no lie there!! I got my axe equip't with Duncans 59 on the two musicmans.

And let me tell ya all something I picked up this OLP MM1f 2006 I think cheap guys I mean 200 ebay shipped, the damn guitar arrived I feel out of my chair.
Man these guitars flat out Kick ass!! Had real maple top cheap or not it's real basswood it was heavey the floyd was a floyd double locker the G D Pups my god man whomever made the pups they simple kick ass, they are def higher output the guitar sounds thick ass hell the action on her was ungodly harmonics easy flying easy,

I was just amazed at the quality of this guitar for 200.00 I got out of box plugged in marshall and jammed BAM! Ok sorry got off topic but damn these guitars to me are gold!! For the price! And she looks beautiful! Im not even messing with the pups on her. The neck was different she seemed more solid and different wire on her too? Its def not like those cheap MM1 axies night and day!! 200 bucks I will buy them all day long!
Sorry bout that off topic crap but man what a deal!