Tonewood discussion on YT

[Legit tales]

All the people who say they can hear the difference I would say the same thing of course you can- when you were told this guitar is made of this wood and it sounds this way and then you play it the psychological trick of confirmation bias and the fact that hearing is extremely subjective will of course make you think you can hear a difference in the wood.

However I challenge anybody to present even one double-blind study where a person identified a guitars Tonewood while blindfolded and playing the guitar, or where hearing a guitar played for him and he could distinguish wood based on only the sound that they heard.

There have been countless studies conducted under such conditions though where people were unable to distinguish the wood

I have scoured the Internet and some scientific boards for years and I have yet to find one example where this has happened

We've all heard of the guy who has presented a challenge to those who believe in ESP and has offered a rather sizeable award for anybody to demonstrate ESP in controlled conditions and In the decades since he has offered this challenge it has never happened

If you have spent many years believing in TonewooDs and God knows I did and especially if you have spent considerable psychological energy you have considerable emotional involvement and especially you have considerable financial involvement in having spent far more money for guitars made of certain woods et cetera then of course you have an incredibly vested interest and preconceived biases in believing in Tonewood and of course if you were told that guitar sounds better because of the wood then you may be playing guitar that sounds better due to a host of factors from strange adjustment factors to pick ups to all those other factors that do make a difference in electric guitars and simply attributing them to the wood

We have even seen examples where people have ruined a beautiful guitars because regardless of woods effect on sound guitars are beautifully crafted instruments and the wood is a big part of it. Seeing cases where a beautiful guitar that supposedly sounded good due to the woods had the entire body SAWED off except for the part directly connecting the neck to the bridge and there was absolutely zero difference in discernible sound WHEN THE GUITAR IS PLUGGED IN
Believers in tonewood also remind me of believers in certain martial arts superiority before the arrival of ultimate fighting championship type events when they were absolutely convinced that their art was the superior fighting style and they knew it because of being invested in the style and only fighting people trained in the style et cetera but When their styles were actually compete against, they failed miserably

Colombians have a proverb that one learns best with blood and it literally took blood for martial artist to accept that yes for example any martial art that doesn't include ground fighting is going to lose most of the time in a no holds barred competition with a skilled fighter who takes a person to the ground

Unlike martial arts where all sorts of elements apply and where there is always a punchers chance et cetera when it comes to sound every time a guitar string is vibrated and a pick up changes that vibration pattern into an electrical signal a very discreet and specific signal is made and That can be measured and nobody has ever proved that the signal differs based upon Tonewood

Most will agree that the vast majority of time, differences in electric guitars has to do with the pick ups may be about 90% or so and then the other 10% has to do with a host of factors related to string set up that can include all sorts of factors that affect string vibration such as the set up of the bridge the height of the frets etc. etc. etc. but for example for those who believe that fingerboardmaterial makes a difference how do you account for the fact that it sounds exactly the same whether you're pressing your finger down on a quartz inlay or on the fingerboard material itself? and of course different material fingerboards play differently and feel differently and those are elements it's going to affect how you play the guitar which will affect the tone even very subtle differences in how you strike the string with the pick up for example will affect the string vibration which will affect sound andI personally always hear a difference when I am playing a maple fingerboard which I prefer versus any other fingerboard however I can understand that this doesn't have to do with the tonal qualities imparted by the fingerboard because it cannot Impart quality of the sound when pressing down on the fingerboard make the string vibrate against the fret and not the fingerboard but it certainly does affect the way I attacked my playing which will affect the sound and of course Tone is dependent on a person's playing style and with some guitarists it's partially in their guitar but they can pick up almost any guitar amp and a couple notes you know exactly who they are

Some amazing sounding guitars have been made of the most bizarre materials including plastic concrete and aluminum by the way

I would far prefer that Tonewood did make a difference because I invested a large part of my life believing in it and it certainly would be great for guitar makers and guitar players but I will not believe it until I see evidence and despite the fact that there are literally billions of dollars invested in this concept over time and countless individuals who profit from this idea nobody has ever simply been able to construct one scientific study that proves this concept and it is not a difficult concept to prove if it was true study is in fact relatively simple to construct

This is tangential to the science involved in understanding how pick ups produce a signal and instead of trying to prove the tonewood myth scientifically which is very dependent on a persons understanding of certain scientific concepts surrounding how pick ups and magneticFields work, it's tangential to the fact that if the tonewood people are correct studies would prove their beliefs and not a single rigorously conducted study has ever been conducted that does prove that tone woods make a discernible difference in sound in an electric guitar signal. I will say very explicitly that of coursewhen an acoustic guitar is played acoustically all sorts of factors come into play that do not come into play when the pick ups are involved and if you're playing quietly enough so you can hear the acoustic qualities of your electric guitar in addition to the sound coming out of the amp which is very often the case when you are playing and practicing your home etc. then of course lots of acoustic factors will come into account and of course we are talking about acoustic guitars there are all sorts of construction factors involving wood etc. that make a huge difference in tone and I am specifically stating that Tonewood does not matter for electric guitars only when they're plugged in and when you are dealing with the signal coming out of the amp and not coming from the guitar itself acoustically


Of course Neil Young's prewar Martin that sounds simply awesome sounds that way in very large part because of the wood in the guitar

Yes this is my first post but this is an issue I have been studying literally for years and again that I would love to be wrong about because I find the idea of Tonewoods very appealing and romantic and as somebody who appreciates craft in creating products like surfboards for example where the material does make a huge difference and anybody who is ever written a surfboard made of a stiff wood versus a more flexible material Can understand... Well, I would readily accept I was wrong if scientifically constructed studies could prove it

1 million people saying they can hear the difference theirself which is something that I believe I can do as well but I recognize that this is due to all those psychological principles that affect how we hear which again is an extremely subjective process, are not proof

Neither are romantic appeals proof etc. and if people won't accept that if Tonewoods matter, then they will produce tonal differences one can hear BLINDFOLDED, then I won't bother...

Cheers!

[Legit tales]

Hearing is extremely subjective and there are so many experiments on this it boggles the mind. But it really comes down to this whether or not you understand or accept the scientific argument as to why Tonewood cannot affect the sound on an amplified guitar signal using potted electromagnetic pickups consider that if Tonewoods affected the sound it would be relatively easy to prove using a controlled double-blind study and yet there is not a single study that demonstrates this. Reasonably well constructed studies that destroy the myth such as the recent university study but as a general rule studies that attempt to of a negative are always harder to construct and if there was a discernible difference to the ear then it would be discernible to the ears doing double-blind identification and yet not a single study shows that people can identify tonewood's in a double-blind study.

NOT A SINGLE EXAMPLE

If a single experiment showed that there isany difference to the sound produced and recorded via whatever instrument one chooses to use and there are plenty of very sensitive instruments that are much more sensitive than human ears and that is why excellent mimics can engage in their craft to the point where people cannot tell the difference but a voiceprint analyser can tell the difference between every individual's voice because they are as individual as DNA or fingerprints despite the fact that you cannot discern these very subtle differences

I have no bone in this fight and frankly I would love for the Tonewood myth to be true . I grew up believing it and The wold would be more interesting if it were true

[T.L.]

I have no dog in this fight either, but here's my experience.

I've discovered that there's no discernible tone difference between a rosewood slab fretboard, and a maple fretboard (solid or capped) in two identical guitars with the same scale length, wood, bridge, & pickups.
The idea that a rosewood fretboard sounds "warm" and a maple 'board sounds "bright" is just plain B.S.

However...... here are three examples of tonal differences I have experienced:

1) Two Strats, same pickups & hardware. One body is heavy, hard-ash, and the other is average-weight alder. The ash Strat sounded a lot brighter than the alder Strat. It really had a "spank" that the alder Strat did not.

2) Two "Super-Strats" , same brand with same shape, same neck construction (maple w/rosewood fretboards), same bridge, and SAME pickup ('took it out of one guitar and tried it in the other). One guitar was basswood, the other agathis.
The agathis had a transparent finish and was a beautiful piece of wood ('would have made a great coffee table).
The difference? The agathis guitar sounded dull & muddy. Did not have the attack or "sizzle" that the basswood guitar had...with the SAME pickup and hardware!

3) A ES335 sounds fat & slightly hollow ('cuz it IS) compared to a Les Paul or a SG with the SAME pickups & hardware. Granted, we're not necessarily talking about wood species here, but the construction of the body obviously affects the tone, which tells me that the pickups are not producing only an electric tone generated by a magnetic field, but are actually 'hearing' something else as well.

I also believe in the power of suggestion, but I had no prior knowledge of what these woods were "supposed" to sound like when I first made the observation.

I will go as far to say that wood species has the least effect on electric guitar tone of all related components, but based on my own experience, it must have some effect...

[Tone Slinger]

String vibration is obvious (a guitars 'sound'), so having said that, the mounting screws of the bridge (or posts) are the 'feelers' that draw up the resonance (body wood) which travels to the plate, saddles, etc. All this takes place upon striking ANY part of the instrument. Obviously picking/plucking the string is the best way. So actually the 'grain/ring orientation' of the wood (regardless of the species) is the MOST important factor in how this 'resonant vibration' takes place. The pu (any type) NEEDS that vibration (string) obviously. So the better the resonance the better the sound and throw. Wood species and specific densities within the same species follow right behind the 'ring orientation' in importance. For the best balance of tone and clarity you DO NOT want a TOO light body nor a TOO heavy body(the resonance is affected DRASTICALLY by either extreme). Regardless of species, you want about a 3 3/4 to no more than a 4 1/4 lb body (strat as an ex.). Ash has quick transients and in relation to that is brilliant/bright, mahogany is warmer with subdued bite and clarity, Alder straddles the two, etc, etc. Look at Warmoths showcase and that is about the weight you will see, regardless of species. They (WARMOTH) have ALOT of all this down.
None of this stuff is super drastic, but every guitar has a 'resonant voice' and one can get closer to what makes one guitar have 'it' and another 'not'

[rgorke]

So, if I am to understand that I could put the same pickup in two different guitars made out of different woods and they SHOULD sound exactly the same?

And I don't think the martial arts example is a very good one...it all depends on the person in the fight. One martial art could be superior but if the person who is using it is not as skilled as the person he or she is fighting then the one who is more skilled in a "lessor" martial art could overtake the former.

[FL6]

So, if I am to understand that I could put the same pickup in two different guitars made out of different woods and they SHOULD sound exactly the same?

I'm guessing certain other things would have to be the same like the electronics and strings.

[Tone Slinger]

So, if I am to understand that I could put the same pickup in two different guitars made out of different woods and they SHOULD sound exactly the same?

I'm guessing certain other things would have to be the same like the electronics and strings.

Good one Roger , thats the BEST ex. of why the actual wood of the guitars body makes a difference. I've swapped out the parts from one guitar (body that is) to another (neck, electronics, bridge) on MANY occasions, and there is always noticable differences in resonance and tone. Obviously a body wood 'Tone Chart' (like Warmoths for ex.) is FOR REAL ! Those 'generalities' are TOTALLY accurate. Its the things that arent known or discussed much (actual grain/ring orientation, body join, weight/density WITHIN a species, etc) that impact things beyond those Tone 'generalities'.

[Legit tales]

There are a metric buttload of factors that affect tone inherent in a guitar (in addition to of course the player where how he holds the pick if he uses one matters, how he strikes the strings where etc of course matter)

People say an ash Guitar x sounds different from a mahogany guitar y EVEN WUTH THE SAME PICKUPS

WELL OF COURSE

IF USING TWO DIFFRRENT GUITARS, you must control for ALL factor (variables) - that is how science works

And you aren't unless you use exactly the same electronics, scale length, strings , setup, nut, pickup height pickup placement etc etc

It is impossible to equalize those factor between two dufferent makes of guitar

CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTS

a stray with THE SAME PICKUPS, Strings, bridge assembly, nuts, frets (strat not stray) etc still has a myriad of elements different from a les Paul whether it's scale length, to pickup position etc

But when you take two guitars with the same (all the stuff that matters) but use a ash body in one and a plastic body in another?

NO DIFFERENCE
It's compelling apart from the physics

PLEASE STUDY COMPRESSION WAVES!!!

That you can. Take a guitar and record the sound, then saw off the body and nobody can tell which recordings came before that entire 'resonant' body was REMOVED

NEVER BEEN DONE by all these people who KNOW they can hear the difference
If ash affects tone than REMOVING IT - affects tone? Except... It does not

I can set up a Sennheiser which has no body to speak of to sound incredibly warm resonant smoky and soulful

Have you ever heard a danelectro? Plastic and stuff?

Or a see through acrylic guitar????

My luthier btw can make my guitar sound very different without changing the pups

Heck, even a string tree which affects string angle Etc is a factor

The most ironic thing is I really WISH tonewoods mattered

But no amount of unfounded assertions rationalization a speculations and statements made based on what is ALWAYS SUBJECTIVE - human interpretation of sense data can trump science AND empirical evidence and controlled studies.

And remember the guitar industry has a massive stake in this

It took cigarette manufacturers decades AND court orders to admit they could cause cancer

[FL6]

It would be cool to have a hierarchy on the parts of the electric guitar that affect the tone, from most to least or type of effect (highs, lows, sustain).

[Tone Slinger]

That really isnt a very hard thing to grasp. Obviously an acoustic guitar is as much about what ISNT there, but with electric guitars thats not the case. 1st though, I'd like to say that I completely believe that the body wood (or 'material' ) affects the tone (eq and resonance). The species used has a 'general' sound. The Warmoth tone chart is VERY accurate. The heavier/denser the wood is, within a species, the sound will be tighter, brighter and thinner sounding. Too light and its all a bunch of warmth and resonance, BUT, without much distinguishing attack and articulation. Here again, medium weights are best imo. The bridge plays a VERY IMPORTANT ROLE, cause it translates the body woods vibrations. The pick up then transfers the vibrating string, so on and so forth. Of course scale length, fret material, neck type/construction makes a difference, but in a SAME SPEC guitar (a bolt on neck, 25 1/2 scale strat for ex.) The body wood and bridge type is HUGE to the sound/tone. You want the grain ring orientation to be right (bigger rings headed towards the face of the body, in other words the INSIDE of the tree towards your belly and the part closest to the bark (sap wood) as the face. Most companies builders use either orientation randomly, seemingly unaware of the difference. Resonance and sustain is the difference.

[JimiJames]

kemper bullshit

Larry Know's:

[rgorke]

kemper bullshit

Larry Know's:

Its all the pickups man...the wood means nothing!!!

[T.L.]

So, 50 years of aging wood & electronics increases sustain?? Bull$#!t.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Listen to Seasick Steve videos to learn a lot more.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Guys, guys, guys, for centuries expert woodcutters have known for a fact that wood should only be cut during a new moon for it to age and behave properly (sic).
Sure, everything about a guitar can impact our guitar playing experience.
What can your listeners hear?
Listen to Seasick Steve videos to see the extremes of how much the construction of an electric guitar impacts complexity of tone.