Is a Metro for me? (Current DSL100 owner, playing hard rock)

Badside · Post by **Badside** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:54 pm

I don't believe I will get many "no" from here

But I'm just taking as much information as I can.
Mostly, I see EVH and Page being mentionned quite frequently here. So let's be honest from the start, I am not looking necessarily for THAT tone. I'm a young 20-something playing hard-rock (on the verge of metal).

You can hear my band here if you want some reference: www.myspace.com/lenfer
Those demos were recorded with a Boogie Mark IV, which I've sold recently. I'm kind of burned on high-gainers, I mean the amp ruled for lead tones, but it lacked the interaction, the dynamics I'm looking for.

I'm currently using a DSL100 but so far I'm not exactly impressed. I used to tour with a DSL50 before buying the Mesa, and now this amp is used by my band's singer, it sounds amazingly sexy! That Marshall bark, the harmonic richness in the top-end (he's using Greenbacks, incredible combo).

So basically, after selling the Mesa, I was looking for something similar to my DSL50, but with more punch and clarity, which is why I went with the 100watter... basically gave me the exact opposite result. The lack of note clarity is worse than on the 50, and the ending result is cold as ice (I can't even being to make the power tubes work, it's too freaking powerful).

So there I am, looking at Metro kits. I've been wanting to build an amp for the longest time! So that's a plus!
And I love how easy they are to tweak and modify.

The question is: can I get it to sound heavy enough for my needs?

I don't mind punishing it with an OD pedal, it's what I usually do with the DSL, so as long as it has as much gain as the DSL on the "crunch" mode (Green channel) using a PPIMV, then I'm all good.
Worst case, I guess cascading the channels (one wire mod) will get me into ultra-brootal territory, especially with a pedal!

But your comments are welcome!

Also, I'm debating between the 50 and 100W. I've read as much as I could on this board, and this is why I bought a DSL100 in the first place, but the awesomeness of the Marshall 100w amp did not concretise...

I just love how the 50W gets all dirty at a manageable volume. I know the 100 is only 3dB more in terms of volume, but the 50W does appear to overdrive noticeably quicker.

However, what I like about the 100W is that the chassis is bigger, and that's a plus for me! Since I gig a lot, I want to add some bells and whistles later down the line, using Weber relay boards (mostly some kind of a solo boost... maybe actually a rhytm "un-boost" by paralleling a second switchable pot for the PPIMV), maybe reverb or an FX loop too. So extra room (and I think a hole for a 4th pre tube) is great!

So I'm really debating between the two kits right now.
So far I like the DSL50 much better than the DSL100, but maybe it has to do with the OTs, maybe it's the tubes used (the 50 still has the original preamp tubes, the 100 has been retubed with JJs). Maybe things are different with a Plexi style amp?

I must say I like a solid and powerful low-end, but I like the top end rich and warm.

Thanks and sorry for the long post

killpop99 · Post by **killpop99** » Fri May 16, 2008 7:32 pm

I'd say go for it. The 50 and the 100 will both have decent room for mods, but to be honest, all the mods I've tried made the amp sound not as good as stock. I'm even getting an attenuator now to get rid of the ppimv. The tone is world class, clips don't even compare. Every amp I've compared it to side by side just gets stomped into the ground. Other amps are like toys compared to this. (Peavey, Mesa) (even the owners of other amps admit that its better) I play death metal on mine, and I only need a slight boost from a clean boost to get that. (Morbid Angel/Slayer type of tone) If you want an overdrive, stay away from TS types.

killpop99 · Post by **killpop99** » Fri May 16, 2008 7:36 pm

BTW, I'm running TAD 6l6GC's, .1uf pi coupling caps, 5000pf bright cap. With vol 1 on 8 or so I get about as much gain as old VH when its cranked, and with the boost I'm into metal land.

Badside · Post by **Badside** » Fri May 16, 2008 10:55 pm

killpop99 wrote:I'd say go for it. The 50 and the 100 will both have decent room for mods, but to be honest, all the mods I've tried made the amp sound not as good as stock. I'm even getting an attenuator now to get rid of the ppimv. The tone is world class, clips don't even compare. Every amp I've compared it to side by side just gets stomped into the ground. Other amps are like toys compared to this. (Peavey, Mesa) (even the owners of other amps admit that its better) I play death metal on mine, and I only need a slight boost from a clean boost to get that. (Morbid Angel/Slayer type of tone) If you want an overdrive, stay away from TS types.

Thanks for the info

I have two overdrive pedals which I like a lot with the DSL serie, an MXR Zakk Wylde (harmonicly rich, tight) and an original Marshall Guv'nor (bolder, badder).
Worst case I'll get out the soldering gun and have some fun (I already built a clone of the Guv'nor for fun, it has a switch to remove the clipping LEDs and it uses a Burr-Brown op-amp, sounds bitchin!)

As for mods, it's mostly a lead (level) boost I'm hoping to install. As long as I have room for a relay board, I could even do away with the 2nd pot by making it fixed). Of course, if I was to go the attenuator route instead of a PPIMV, that doesn't work... although a friend of mine built himself a footswitchable attenuator for his Fender!

Badside · Post by **Badside** » Fri May 16, 2008 10:58 pm

killpop99 wrote:BTW, I'm running TAD 6l6GC's, .1uf pi coupling caps, 5000pf bright cap. With vol 1 on 8 or so I get about as much gain as old VH when its cranked, and with the boost I'm into metal land.

The .1uf PI coupling cap, if I understand correctly is to let more bass get to the power amp right?

That's something I want to do try! Adding more bass earlier in the circuit doesn't work for me (on my Mark IV, with the tone stack right after the input stage, I ran my bass knob on 0 and used the graphic EQ which is post MV I think to boost the bass, sounded huge and tight!)

killpop99 · Post by **killpop99** » Sat May 17, 2008 1:08 am

A switchable lead boost would still work fine with an attenuator. Just make it like a fixed pre pimv and make it switchable, someone more skilled on here could help you with it.

Badside · Post by **Badside** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:01 am

I was just thinking... I remember reading on the AX84 board about people who would lift the ground on the tone stack as a lead boost. This of course gives a huge mid boost.

Anyone here ever tried that? I did read about people adding a serie resistor on the tone stack's ground connection.

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:10 am

killpop99 wrote:BTW, I'm running TAD 6l6GC's, .1uf pi coupling caps, 5000pf bright cap. With vol 1 on 8 or so I get about as much gain as old VH when its cranked, and with the boost I'm into metal land.

my '68 style 50w also has enough gain for old VH

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:14 am

I recommend a 100w and some filtering for punchy riffs. perhaps a 1959 or 2203 circuit with a good master volume or an attenuator

thousandshirts · Post by **thousandshirts** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:33 pm

I'd suggest you get in contact with our own 5150loveeddie. If I remember correctly he is in Montreal or the Montreal area. If I can also remember correctly, he has built at least 10 plexi style amps. He's also an awesome player -- I DO remember his sound clips!

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:56 am

Badside wrote:I was just thinking... I remember reading on the AX84 board about people who would lift the ground on the tone stack as a lead boost. This of course gives a huge mid boost.

Anyone here ever tried that? I did read about people adding a serie resistor on the tone stack's ground connection.

Thats only going to change your tone. Its not really going to make you much louder. More saturated, sure. Im not a fan of that mod in marshalls. Its better to just switch in a much higher treble cap value then you boost only the mids and not everything.

I dont like to get reliant on a second volume level to boost for solos. I used to use one. But its a touchy thing. I notice most of the time when I see a band and the guitar player hits it he's just way too loud and it doesnt sound right. An amp that sits right in the mix when you drop out to play a lead it will still be heard very clearly. A plexi just by its nature being cranked and the compression effect can actually sound louder in the mix when playing leads. If its still too low then the sound guy had your amp too low to begin with. If you have to contend with another guitar player or 2, and they have a wall of distortion going I guess thats a bit different.

The difference between the 50 and your 100 could easily be the way its biased. If its biased really cold it will sound bad. I would check that out.

By far the best way to run those DSLs is to have the master on 10 and bring up the gain to taste. Somewhere real low usually. Use an attenuator if you have to. Youll probably need one if you do get a metro kit.

But I wouldnt say a plexi is very heavy. Some people do do the boost thing with a pedal but Im not a fan of how that sounds, even for heavy stuff. Its too much of an 80s heavy sound. Thin and screaming. If your into that. Id really suggest that if you build one try the preamp in a 2203 configuration first. Its not a very big mod to change between 1959 and 2203.

toner · Post by **toner** » Sun May 18, 2008 2:23 pm

Based on the bands mentioned on your site, I'd suggest a 2203 style amp. A standard plexi might be a little tame for what you want. 2203's have a lot more gain but aren't overly compressed like a lot of current amps.

It sounds like you're comfortable with building your own amp. If so, Metro is a great choice. If you'd rather buy a stock amp, you may want to try a Marshall Vintage Modern. Those would probably fit the tone you described. Marshall describes them as "classic rock" and they can do that fairly well but they also have a lot of gain for heavier stuff. I guess it depends on what you consider heavy.

As for 50 vs. 100w, I prefer 100's for the extra dynamics and headroom. 50's do break up earlier and have a different feel. Either way, you'll probably want a PPIMV or an attenuator unless you play huge venues.

jcmjmp · Post by **jcmjmp** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:36 pm

Badside wrote:
killpop99 wrote:I'd say go for it. The 50 and the 100 will both have decent room for mods, but to be honest, all the mods I've tried made the amp sound not as good as stock. I'm even getting an attenuator now to get rid of the ppimv. The tone is world class, clips don't even compare. Every amp I've compared it to side by side just gets stomped into the ground. Other amps are like toys compared to this. (Peavey, Mesa) (even the owners of other amps admit that its better) I play death metal on mine, and I only need a slight boost from a clean boost to get that. (Morbid Angel/Slayer type of tone) If you want an overdrive, stay away from TS types.
Thanks for the info

I have two overdrive pedals which I like a lot with the DSL serie, an MXR Zakk Wylde (harmonicly rich, tight) and an original Marshall Guv'nor (bolder, badder).

...snip...

As for mods, it's mostly a lead (level) boost I'm hoping to install. As long as I have room for a relay board, I could even do away with the 2nd pot by making it fixed). Of course, if I was to go the attenuator route instead of a PPIMV, that doesn't work... although a friend of mine built himself a footswitchable attenuator for his Fender!

You'd probably love a Jubilee or Jubilee clone

Just wondering though... why not get another DSL 50? I have to agree... they sound real sweet. I had a DSL 100 for a while and liked it a lot. The DSL 50 just sounds a little sweeter to my ears.

The MXR or Guv'Nor are both excellent pedals to OD the front end of Marshalls. As is the BOSS SD-1 and Ibanez TS-9 (mine is modded to remove the low freq cut). The MXR has huge low end and the Guv'Nor is real flexible with its 3 band EQ.

mayrandp · Post by **mayrandp** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:14 am

thousandshirts wrote:I'd suggest you get in contact with our own 5150loveeddie. If I remember correctly he is in Montreal or the Montreal area. If I can also remember correctly, he has built at least 10 plexi style amps. He's also an awesome player -- I DO remember his sound clips!

+1! He has worked on Steve Hill and Ricky Paquette's amps and built amps for St

Badside · Post by **Badside** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:16 pm

Thanks for all the great replies!!!

Yeah, my influences are rather heavy. A few years ago I would've killed to get Metallica's tone on the Black Album... had it for 18 months now (Mesa Mark IV) and I'm selling the amp.
I'm just burned on high-gainers.

Yeah, I'd rather build than buy. I'm just not too confortable with Marshall's modern offering. I've tried the Vintage Modern and didn't really bond with it either. And for the price it goes for, I'd rather handwire one myself! I love toying around with this stuff.

So yeah, I like the DSL50, but I'm hoping for less "cloudiness". I want a bit more note clarity, more dynamics.

I know morphing a 1959 into a 2203 is relatively easy affair, and some even put it on a switch. That's what I'd be interested to do.

No I don't want a low-mid heavy sound, I want that Marshall bark and the harmonic richness that makes me want to strum full chords instead of power chords.

Thanks y'all!