which kit for these sounds?

lunastromoner · Post by **lunastromoner** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:18 pm

Hi,

My name is Tim and I'm from Vermont. I've built a couple of amps, the most recent being a Hiwatt Hylight era DR504 clone from Vintage Hiwatt Restorations. I'm interested in building a Marshall clone, and everyone says Metroamp kits are the absolute best, but I'm not sure which kit to go with...

My three favorite Marshall tones are Jimmy Page on Since I've Been Loving You from the Led Zeppelin DVD, John Mclaughlin in the (first) Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Angus Young on Touch Too Much. Volume isn't an issue. Would the regular 100w plexi kit be good? Or should I go with the 67 bare bones kit and source the parts myself?

Thanks very much, this forum is a great resource!

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:43 pm

I'd elect the '67/'68 kit. There's an option under the barebones listing for a complete kit -- just no step-by-step directions for the '67/'68. There are a number of threads on these builds here though, and a layout on the CD I believe.

Danhalen · Post by **Danhalen** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:56 pm

lunastromoner wrote: ...My three favorite Marshall tones are Jimmy Page on Since I've Been Loving You from the Led Zeppelin DVD, John Mclaughlin in the (first) Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Angus Young on Touch Too Much...

I am particularly fond of these two selections myself!

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:58 pm

I'll second that!!!!

lunastromoner · Post by **lunastromoner** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:59 am

Great! Thanks a lot for your advice.

What makes that kit more expensive than the other 100w kit? Does it have the 500/400v PT in it like the '68 that George makes? If that's what makes the price higher, I can do without that. At the risk of getting typed at, I've never been a huge fan of EVH...

Also, what speakers would you recommend for the '67/'68 kit? I've been using Weber speakers a lot and I'm very happy with them. What do people consider the best Celestion clone for this amp?

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:13 am

the 69 lead circuit is fine for page (and perhaps Mclaughlin?). page seems to have used this circuit. Angus seems to have used both the earlier circuits and the later lead circuits

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:38 pm

'69 lead circuit is perfect for McLaughlin. He used stock Super Leads in the first Mahavishnu Orchestra, and everything he used appeared to be "new stock", i.e. 1971-2 era cabinets (both BW and checkerboard with 9" logos), so presumably the amps were similar vintage. A '69-era SL with the .68uF on V2a is probably the trick, but you should try it with and without, and with various degrees of negative feedback. 47k on the 8ohm tap is a good place to start, although McLaughlin's amps may well have had 100k on the 4 ohm tap.

That kind of amp will do a most convincing Jimmy Page type tone as well, although you probably do know that Page used a custom Hiwatt almost exclusively live from mid-69 through 1971, right? I have a replica, and it's definitely a different beast to play than a Marshall. You can't ride on that compression, there's not much to hide behind...

lunastromoner · Post by **lunastromoner** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:40 pm

Awesome! So then probably the '69 circuit is the way to go? I play in a Mahavishnu-esque fusion band and I think Mclaughlin's tone on Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire is the best fusion tone ever recorded. It's raw and it RIPS.

Yeah, I saw all the threads about the JP Hiwatt. I would absolutely love to build one at some point, but I'm a bigger fan of his Marshall sounds. I do love my Hiwatt copy, though, and you're exactly right, there's nothing to hide behind! I actually feel like I've become (and will continue to become) a better player just from playing through that amp.

Flames, what do you think about the '69 circuit? I would love to get your opinion!

Thanks SO much, everybody, for your suggestions.

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:16 pm

You asked about the best Celestion-type speakers, and the answer is easy: Scumback speakers. I just got a pair of H55s, which are clones of late-60s G12H30 55Hz types. I can compare them directly to a quad of '70 G12H30 55Hz I have, and these are IMHO every bit as good and sound spot on.

BTW, nice to have another McLaughlin fan on board, as you can tell by my screen name, I'm a huuuuge fan! I also think his tone in that era is great and overlooked, but I do think his tone varied a bit and wasn't *always* great. Sometimes a little too saturated, although I actually think it got better with the Rex Bogue Double Rainbow guitar from July '73 onwards, even if that one had a built-in preamp to overdrive the amp even more). Love his tone with the Boogies in the '74-'75 era too!

lunastromoner · Post by **lunastromoner** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:58 pm

I've heard a lot of great things about Scumback speakers. Which model would you recommend?

Yeah, I agree that sometimes John Mclaughlin's tone is too gainy, but then I listen to the trading solos in One Word and I forget all about it.

I'm hoping to see him this May, he's coming to Burlington, VT, only about 45 minutes from where I live!

What would the .68uF cap on V2a do? How would it change the sound?

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:11 am

the .68 boost mids and treble.
H55s, H75s, and M75s are all good. I'd say H75s for angus riffs and page riffs. H55s would probably also work well. M75 is better for solo tones that are compressed and middy rather than bright and cutting

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:26 am

For McLaughlin I'd say M55 or M75. As Roe says, these compress a little more and thus lend themselves a little better to fluid lead playing, IMO.

OTOH, you can often see McLaughlin with a single 4x12 and a Super Lead. With M magnet speakers (rated 25w), those probably wouldn't last very long being abused by a raging 100-watter, so it might be more likely that he used H magnet speakers.

capelton · Post by **capelton** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:26 pm

Just for the record, live, Jimmy Page used 100 watt heads with KT88s. In the studio, he DEFINATELY used a 50 watt plexi with EL34s.

thousandshirts · Post by **thousandshirts** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:29 pm

capelton wrote:Just for the record, live, Jimmy Page used 100 watt heads with KT88s. In the studio, he DEFINATELY used a 50 watt plexi with EL34s.

"Just for the record..."

Don't try to explain what Jimmy Page did and didn't do to Shatki. . . He already knows.

And just for the record. . .you need to do some more research!

thousandshirts · Post by **thousandshirts** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:35 pm

Definitely a super lead for the early Mahavishnu sounds. Johnny was big for me as an early teen. I was lucky a friend's uncle was a huge fusion nut. I must have made a million cassettes from all his albums, then started buying CD's myself. Too young to have caught any of this stuff live, but I did catch John on his Acid Jazz tour in the late 1990s. Dennis Chambers was ridiculous, too. . .

Anyways, I've seen a number of video reels where John seems to be using a single 4x12. On the other hand, he definitely used a full stack sometimes, too. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to know that John would blow a speaker and keep going in those days. If I was trying to nail the early Mahavishnu, I'd go with the M magnet greenback type speakers, M75s, specifically, would be my choice. As Roe and Shatki already pointed out. And this is not to say that you would be too far off the mark with some H magnet greenback types, either.

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