You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

[Mynameisfritz]

Hi there.
Dan... - hope you don't mind - thanks for these new clips. I experience it the same way I did in your recent clips. The 6550's catch my attention while the EL34's don't do it that much...

I'll concede that in a S. Lead, the 6550 is better with single coil's,insofar as they keep that tight,percusive character, that El-34's lose when you push them.

That's what I hear as well. It's most noticable when you hit that single note on the g-string - just compare that single note in both clips. The EL34's make it sound flat, not as round - at least that's what I hear. The differences may be small but they are there.

Hey, when you post that POS-clips, what about letting us guess which is which - so only our ears can choose.

As I mentioned earlier, the sound Jimi had on the 'Blue Suede Shoes' jam always reminded me of the BOG tone somehow. I'm not sure - but it floors me in a similar way... Maybe that could be another starting point for further investigations. Recorded on Jan 23th 1970, but it's east coast, hmm...
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVDumAM5_Q

[Billy Batz]

I think the whole thing gets over-thought. The wildest theory that really caught my attention was this idea that he used a JTM-45/100 that he had saved and used for these shows since they were a special occasion. Looking past the fact that he did these concerts just to get out of a deal he had one more album on and so it was an obligatory thing. Someone here in the past, I forget who exactly, swore up and down they had proof tat it was but I asked repeatedly and got back talk. Maybe its true but saying you know something and have proof and then not even being willing to say what the proof is, never mind sharing it, you might as well not even get involved if thats the way its gonna be.

You can see from my posts from before I even tried the 6550s after I had decided for myself it had to be a lead, something was just never right about the tone. I dont remember the posts but if you search back you can see me thinking out loud to that effect a few months back saying how the lows are too rubbery and not deep enough and the highs arent extended and glassy enough. Thats the reason I even conceived of trying the big bottles which is something I never intended to do, article or no.

Ill do those PoS clips Fri night probably. I wont label them so you guys can decide but Im pretty sure having listened to previous clips anyone could pick out which is which.

[basile865]

i wish somebody would come out with proof like that. funny theres no good pictures from that night. well great discussion guys, keep it up!

[Mynameisfritz]

I see your point. There are a lot of myths about that so the whole thing can get over-interpreted easily. It's good to be aware of that and think twice. I believe that many things about Hendrix which became a myth just happened moreless by accident these days. What we do here is looking after the (technical) truth behind these myths, and the story of the westcoast tech seems to be the most relevant story here so far, because when listening to your 6550 clips, at least my ears tell me so, nothing more, nothing less. There will be no absolute proof about that, but what we do have here is new methods, the technical possibilities, the people and the forum - which creates a new background for asking questions like this. 15 years ago or so that just wasn't the case. In the end, of course everyone has to decide for himself if the 6550's work for him or not.

I'd be very interested in some comments about that 'Blue Suede Shoes' sound. Or am I totally wrong here?

Looking forward to your POS clips!

[Mynameisfritz]

Let me add: I just think you're on the right way here. Don't get too irritated about stuff people say. Everyone has his own myths to tell - especially when it comes to Hendrix. That's why it's so great to have people like you out there who take a look behind, work out some new ways and even let other people participate in the process.
I mean, I've been asking myself about that BOG sound for the last 20 years or so - without any useful results. I don't even know anybody here in the 'Krauttown' area who's really interested in this question too...
You're doin' me a great favour here.

[basile865]

as far as the blue suede shoes thing, Im not sure. Little bits jump out here and there and sound sorta BOGish but who knows?

[basile865]

Thought I might throw this into the mix although again many have probably read this. Its an article on jimi's black strat which was left untouched after he played it last.

http://www.univibes.com/BlackStrat.html

Notice the pickup height isnt flat to the pickguard, it looks about average to me (with the possible exception of the neck pickup?). Also the incredibly light string gauge. On the BOG concert he was tuned a whole step down, with 9's talk about rubberbands! I cant believe he got as fat a tone with 9's. That amp mustve truly been a monster.

Theres something strange about the fact it had little to no fretwear. I mean the use it saw from 68-70 is moreso than the use my strat probably sees, I mean I play every day but not for hours. And even so, my strat needed a fret redress quite badly after 2 years or so. He must've had a light touch. It looks like the volume knobs numbers arent even worn off where mine are green or completely gone. I guess thats more to do with your own sweat.

I did a recording comparison of 9's 10's and 11's all in a row one day. The 11's had more beef to the tone but lacked definition and clarity, which the 9's had the most of. I now run 10's just because the 9's get too loose feeling on me. But then again maybe with a 7.25 radius and vintage frets and the only pure nickel strings available back then would influence it.

[Tone Slinger]

One thing to mention also, the fuzz faces that Hendrix used changed by '70. Hendrix used a 'one off' Roger Mayer modded red FF alot with strat knobs from mid '69 to early '70. This was said to be a hybrid germ/silli design. The si transistor models used in the '70 shows were very compressed and nasally sounding by comparison.

Another thing about the BOG tone is that Hendrix was 'IN The Pocket" the whole time. This, to me, also figures into that tone. Any of the stuff that Miles was on from the late summer '69 on through to the Fillmore shows display's Hendrix with good tone as well as playing, which go togather. Rhythmic feel and syncopation. Hendrix was being HIMSELF, whether he realized it or not. The BOG's should have lasted longer, but you know, too much drugs and not enough sleep lead to paranoia, and paranoia makes people make bad decisions. Which is why I think Hendrix shyed away a bt from his 'blackness', concerning his breaking the BOG's up.

[Billy Batz]

Those arent great pictures for seeing the puckup hight. I had a great poster of a closeup of him and the black strat and you could see every detail. Maybe I should be more clear. Its the neck pickup thats about 1/16 of an inch from the pickguard but thats the one Im on 95% of the time. The bridge, of coarse thats got to be higher just to match the neck volume. If the bridge was close to the pickguard the neck would be under it. But what I consider 'normal' for strats, at least by how most tstrats come, is for the neck pickup to me more like 3/8" from the pickguard. Thats pretty hot. I have my neck just above the pickguard.

[908ssp]

I want to lay a cautionary statement on testing for old sounds with new tubes. New tubes don't sound the same. Old EL34s sound better than current as do 6550. I have an old set of Tung-Sol labeled Amperex 6550 and these tubes just kill [silly word] they just sound amazing in anything I put them in. Back then you could find 6CA7s labeled 6550. And EL34s labeled 6CA7. If the quote from the tech is true then it is true but what exact tube was used in that recording is still unknown.

What is more relevant then what he used is what you use to get close to that sound. If it is a 6550 then it really doesn't matter what Jimi used does it?

[basile865]

my setup is a plexi reissue - nos RCA in V1, mullard reissues in V2 and V3, then the stock EL34s that came with it.

4x12 Speaker cab has 75 watters in it which need to go.

American standard strat, maple neck, bone nut, jumbo frets on a 9.5 radius.

When I get some money together Im going to have a tech I know put in a metroamp heyboer OT, possibly change some values, add a 100pf bright cap, and if we get to it, possibly 6550s.

I keep being tempted to sell my jcm2000 DSL 50 which now never gets used but Ive had that thing for 11 years and its too centimental. Id probably be kickin myself for selling it just to get some mods done sooner.

[Billy Batz]

I want to lay a cautionary statement on testing for old sounds with new tubes. New tubes don't sound the same. Old EL34s sound better than current as do 6550. I have an old set of Tung-Sol labeled Amperex 6550 and these tubes just kill [silly word] they just sound amazing in anything I put them in. Back then you could find 6CA7s labeled 6550. And EL34s labeled 6CA7. If the quote from the tech is true then it is true but what exact tube was used in that recording is still unknown.

What is more relevant then what he used is what you use to get close to that sound. If it is a 6550 then it really doesn't matter what Jimi used does it?

That thought didnt go without consideration on my part but rather then splurge on NOS 6550s I wasnt even sure if this was the right direction anyway so I tried the Shuguang 6550s. To me it really settled the matter clearly but there is still a certain gap in the deepness of the sound and the high end shimmeriness that I always thought was probably the difference of really cranking it. But Ive basically decided its probably a mix of that and good NOS 6550s. 6CA7 is an interesting thought though. That may be a tube that will work with humbuckers and strats because I dont like 6550s with my LP and I much prefer them with my strat.

[Billy Batz]

I keep being tempted to sell my jcm2000 DSL 50 which now never gets used but Ive had that thing for 11 years and its too centimental. Id probably be kickin myself for selling it just to get some mods done sooner.

Patience. Try things when you can because theres no guarantee theyll be what you wanted and almost all the time their not the total fix you lusted after them for. Ive been trying for the BoG tone for 10 years since I was a teenager and first heard Machine Gun. Ive tried way more things that lead nowhere then things that lead in the right direction even to the smallest degree.

[Tone Slinger]

Good advice there Dan. I think that the 'basic' charecter of new tubes are very similar to thier older counterparts. The big thing (difference's between old and new tubes) I've alway's heard is that the old ones lasted about 3 times longer. I think that I hear a decent amount of speaker cone distortion on the dimed material of the BOG's. This would indcate 25 or 30 watt celestions being used. I do believe though that most of the other 69 and 70 stuff sounds like higher wattage speakers.

Hey Rob, I think Hendrix did indeed use light (9-40 or 9-38 I've been told) strings. Listen to how easily he goes out of tune on alot of the Fillmore stuff. Being tuned down a whole step with those light strings made things slip a bit. I could just imagine how much worse it would have been had Hendrix been using a Gibson (24 3/4 scale).

The 7 1/4 radius does keep a bit more tension on the strings when bending for sure, which would have made his strat probably feel like a 9 1/2 radius neck with 10's on it.

[basile865]

Ive read and heard everything from 9's to higher gauges. I cant imagine a whole step with 9's ever sounding good but Im eager to try it with the 7.25 radius. I feel like itd be super rubber bandish loose and slinky, and not be as fat sounding. Ive read that he picked up a trick from albert king which was use big strings and tune down. I did that for about 6 months (use 11's and whole step down). It definately had a bigger sound. I stopped using them because I was convinced it was the culprit to my amp sounding too round. Oh well. His action mustve been really high to achieve those bends and not fret out. I just got a fret redress and Im still fretting out very slightly when I do those albert king style bends. Ill probably have to heighten the action.