Which to Build for JMH - The Dilemma

[shakti]

A few years ago, someone on the forum (BillyBatz?) posted clips of a 12-series build with 6550s that I really liked, had some clear similarities with the BOG/Fillmore East tones. When I get my '69 build together I will probably try it with 6550s as well. I wouldn't be too surprised if 6550s were indeed used by Hendrix in '69-70, at least in the US. Before I've tried it myself, I won't say for sure if BOG sounds like EL34s or something else, but there's a slightly brittle quality to the tone on most of the BOG recordings that I don't really associate with EL34s. However, it is slightly strange that none of the purported Hendrix amps from this period that I've seen photos of show evidence of having been modded for 6550s. As I understand it, you pretty much *have* to change the bias splitter resistors to 150k or something like that?

To bring this thread back on topic somewhat, I'd say to the original poster that which amp you should go for depends on which period Hendrix you're looking for. A rough guide:

'66-67: JTM45/100 for sure. There is the occasional use of a Sound CIty One Hundred in the latter part of '67, but for the most part, anything before mid '67 is a 45/100 with KT66s.

'67-68: Depends...he used a lot of different amps in this period. Fall of '67 is usually a JTM45/100 and a JTM100 (aka '67 Super Lead with EL34s...which again is essentially like any Super Bass). '68 is mostly EL34-based Super Leads, and I suspect most of them are '67 era specimens, i.e. with the older shared cathode preamp, so essentially the same as a Super Bass. I'm not even sure if Hendrix ever had any of the first series split cathode Super Leads (i.e. the late 10-series and the 12-series amp with 16uF screens filtering). Those amps are very gainy and somewhat muddy sounding with the darker sounding rosewood board Strats he was using in '67-68.

'69-70: IMO, split cathode Super Leads with the higher filtering (i.e. all 50+50 cans). Possibly modded to use 6550 tubes, at least some of the time.

[Lefty Lou]

Speaking again of the JTM45/100, you have the shared cathode (versus split cathode) which is supposedly more pedal friendly which I'm sure Jimi latched on to right away. It would also be interesting to note the differences in amp input impedances between the JTM45/100 and the early Super Lead amps. I don't know if you caught it, but it was mentioned that the Dickinson amp had KT66s in the amp when it first came in to Carlsboro Music prior to being sold to Rich Dickinson.

yes, the Dickinson was a 45/100, so with kt66 it's not surprising but i didn't know it later used some other tubes ( ? )
the shared cathode on the superlead helps, ( i don't use the split cathode anymore ) but it doesn't get there totaly.
it seems that the mods attempts on a superlead to "get there", bog tone, are like transforming a superlead into a 45/100 ^^
about the input impedance , aren't they both 1M, followed by some 68k ?

too bad that you couldn't hear the tape flanging, maybe not through zero but very close. and if you hear it loud ? more obvious at 00:23
so you too hear a 45/100 ? yes, i also hear a 45/100 on "gotta live together", as for machine gun, who knows, changes, power to love, etc, same concert i think, same tone i'm talking about, same amp.
a germanium fuzz, i'm not sure. but it's the octavia for sure.

I must not have been paying close enough attention to the details, or the pics of the Dickinson amp because I was assuming it was a very early Super Lead amp. I would think that the input impedance between a shared cathode and split cathode amp would be different (1M and 68k notwithstanding). I'll have a re-listen @ 00:23 of the video clip again. I hear a germanium fuzz with octavia on "gotta live together" because the highs are more rounded and smooth even with a shared cathode and KT66s to blur the audio listening experience.

[Lefty Lou]

A few years ago, someone on the forum (BillyBatz?) posted clips of a 12-series build with 6550s that I really liked, had some clear similarities with the BOG/Fillmore East tones. When I get my '69 build together I will probably try it with 6550s as well. I wouldn't be too surprised if 6550s were indeed used by Hendrix in '69-70, at least in the US. Before I've tried it myself, I won't say for sure if BOG sounds like EL34s or something else, but there's a slightly brittle quality to the tone on most of the BOG recordings that I don't really associate with EL34s. However, it is slightly strange that none of the purported Hendrix amps from this period that I've seen photos of show evidence of having been modded for 6550s. As I understand it, you pretty much *have* to change the bias splitter resistors to 150k or something like that?

Shakti, I will say for fact that 6550s were used by Hendrix because I've seen enough threads, quotes, etc., by different sources to verify this as having happened. BTW, the Groove Tube Book has the mod for EL34 to 6550 conversion.

To bring this thread back on topic somewhat, I'd say to the original poster that which amp you should go for depends on which period Hendrix you're looking for. A rough guide:

'66-67: JTM45/100 for sure. There is the occasional use of a Sound CIty One Hundred in the latter part of '67, but for the most part, anything before mid '67 is a 45/100 with KT66s.

'67-68: Depends...he used a lot of different amps in this period. Fall of '67 is usually a JTM45/100 and a JTM100 (aka '67 Super Lead with EL34s...which again is essentially like any Super Bass). '68 is mostly EL34-based Super Leads, and I suspect most of them are '67 era specimens, i.e. with the older shared cathode preamp, so essentially the same as a Super Bass. I'm not even sure if Hendrix ever had any of the first series split cathode Super Leads (i.e. the late 10-series and the 12-series amp with 16uF screens filtering). Those amps are very gainy and somewhat muddy sounding with the darker sounding rosewood board Strats he was using in '67-68.

'69-70: IMO, split cathode Super Leads with the higher filtering (i.e. all 50+50 cans). Possibly modded to use 6550 tubes, at least some of the time.

Shakti, I'd say the information that you have condensed here is what I've been trying to say all along: 1) Whether or not Jimi was using a JTM45/100 or a very early Super Lead, I believe they were all wired "shared cathode" which no doubt people in the know as well as Jimi became aware of as being more pedal friendly. 2) He did use KT66, EL34, and 6550s in his Marshall amps with the 6550's coming during the latter part of his career as he was blowing up amps by running them flat out all the time. Even Aspen Pittman of Groove tubes stated that the reason Marshall stopped equipping Marshall's to the U.S. and Japan with EL34 tubes were due to inconsistencies found with EL34 tubes failing prior to vacuum tube warranties running out.

[Tone Slinger]

I actually think that Hendrix had a 12xxx or two in the live '68 period (Ottawa for ex.or the 'Jim Morrison jam'). Hendrix got his gainiest tones in that era,as well as his browest.His cleans though,werent as distinguished. Very 12series type artifacts.I'm not familiar with 'Sound City' amps though. He seemed to have one of those in that era in alot of pics.

I agree about his amp being the Kt66 early 100 watter type,up to and including the Axis album.

But from the early '69 period on,I hear split cathode 1959's. The clean,glassiness to the cleans (more headroom before breakup)sounds very much like 6550's. From that point on(spring '69),it seems Jimi got less output tube distortion, really exposing the quality(or lack of)his Fuzz face's. I like the red 'strat knob' fuzz face he used extensively in '69 (axis fuzz ?), but the sillcon fuzz's he used in '70 were not so great, with the '70 LA Forum being an example of how those units sounded in a good environment/recording, and 'Isle Of Wight' being representative of a bad ex. BOG and Woodstock may have been exceptions (he may have picked up some new, fresh amps(el34 1959's) from Manny's for those gigs, since he was aware of those gigs 'importance' ?

The '70 Norman Oklahoma boot (very 'unique' Machine Gun) has that sound (imo,not so good fuzz face tone), so indoors,out doors, audience tape,mobile,etc, Hendrix just sounded like a very big, clean (6550) super lead tone, that sounded sort of harsh and nassally with the new fuzz faces he was using.

[Xplorer]

thanks, didn't hear the Oklahoma version before, very unique indeed.
i agree, this is exactly the kind of superlead 6550 tone ( close to the isle of wight too ) which is nothing like the Fillmore east 45/100 tone.

[Lefty Lou]

A deceased friend of mine had a bootleg of Hendrix's OU Field House performance on 5/8/70, and my other friend's cousin was actually there. I was only 10 at the time, it's too bad I wasn't old enough to go and and missed the performance. In 68' to 69' we had the Who and Led Zeppelin in Oklahoma City at an amusement park right down the street from me, and again I wasn't old enough to see them either.

[shakti]

FWIW, a good example of Hendrix with a split cathode Super Lead with EL34s, is the Lulu show in Jan 69. I don't know for a fact that it's EL34s of course, but it sure sounds like it...crunchy, nasty and fat, and much dirtier than even RAH just a month later.

[Tone Slinger]

I dig this tone. Good strat and a Music Man Hd-130 top and cabinet along with a phase 90. Buddy miles was on the drums.

http://youtu.be/NRIy9PG68Ys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplorer]

Wow ! great feeling, love it
that's what happens when you set a guitar player free

[Lefty Lou]

I dig this tone. Good strat and a Music Man Hd-130 top and cabinet along with a phase 90. Buddy miles was on the drums.

http://youtu.be/NRIy9PG68Ys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clapton must have been high on heroin when he signed the exclusive artist contract with Music Man amps. I'm not the only one who holds this opinion of Music Man amps either, all of my guitar buddies are in complete agreement.

[parkhead]

Hi Everyone. I am "fairly" new to the forum here, but I have been lurking around for a while. Well, Christmas time is nearly here and just got a "go" from the minister of finance to build an amp! I am struggling in what to build though. I see a couple of options: 1) the superlead or 2) super bass. With the SL, there are a variety of options such as el34 or 6550 tubes AND which type to build, the 67, 68, 69, 70, or 73 spec. Which would be better or later Hendrix tone (ie BOG or Royal Albert Hall).

I will go ahead and apologize in advance knowing this question could have been asked before, but I cant quite find the answer I am looking for. If there is a link, feel free to post that.

Thanks everyone! I am very excited to be able to build an amp now!

bmcash

IMHIO BOG is a shared cathode amp.

the golden rule should be
Build the amp you cannot buy, if you want a 73 there are plenty out there. I think you will gain more experience
building an earlier circuit. Make the provision so you can mod it by splitting the cathode...

This is how most of us have learned, build a basic correct era amp then mod it forward and backward in the timeline looking for the elusive parts combination.

this is a 69 metal panel shared cathode 50/50 filtered 69 100 watt super bass, the guitar has real PAF's
there is no bright cap on the volume control no pedals
http://youtu.be/nVVBD-tmrWo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this is a Park 45/100 super bass same as a 45/100 Marshall except for kt88 tubes
the guitar is a 59 lp the one from Switching to Glide by the Kings Mr. Zero always attends a good tone party
when Emile kicks in the full drive, you can really tell how well these early amps smooth out the fuzz
http://youtu.be/rTk7BA-rY98" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is Donna Grantis another amazing guitarist from the rather fertile Toronto west end.
We started talking about BOG tone... and after many mods ended up with a shared cathode Traynor
with and odd mix of superlead and super bass specs...
http://youtu.be/KM7QuXhTC6Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with Donna the whole Idea was to tune the amp so that you could achieve the MachineGun type held notes
where the player has to pull the guitar back from that edge, the harder you push the amp the purer the notes become there is not white noise fuzz wash with the note ... the ads are annoying but this is close
keep in mind she is WAY back in the mix, you can NEVER overshadow the boss

http://www.wat.tv/video/prince-3rd-eye- ... hztv_.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;








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[Lefty Lou]

+1 , Whether JTM45/100 or early Super Lead prototype. Most likely early Super Lead prototype, shared cathode, and 6550 tubes.

[neikeel]

I'm with Explorer on this.

If I want to dial in JH tones (generically) I go JTM45/100 and a step down tuning strat,chill out relax don't try to be perfect, go with the vibe and add the fuzz +/_wah to taste (sorry not got a Univibe).

Other things will get you there with tweaks and fiddling, but the above is easy (even for me!) and to me are his best tones.

[Xplorer]

Exactly !

one is a superlead 69, the other is a 45/100. i don't tell you which is which

but this was recorded poorly a while ago. one recorded with an iPhone lol.
both are shared cathode.
one , even if it doesn't show very well in the short clip, clearly shows some features in the sounds and in the highs, that are relative to bog, the other, not.
i should re do the test properly, with the same cab for both amps, and mics etc.

[Lefty Lou]

(A) is the JTM45/100 and (B) is the 69' Super Lead.

One of these days I'm gonna build me a JTM45/100 as your "A" clip really sold me.