You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

[Xplorer]

Loooool, guys, can you guess what tubes are in the amps we are talking about ?
great picture ! this picture speaks by itself ! the evidence ! the tubes used for bog were .........
that's right ; )
( yes, it's the back of the amp we are talking about, at the fillmore east , about 30 seconds after midnight, 30 seconds after 1969 )

[yngwie308]

Great shot, now after you send it to CSi for picture enhancement, we might know.

yngwie308

[Xplorer]

actualy, i recently heard another who knows version, from rehearsals, and ... you really can hear a vibrato of an univibe into it ... strange .... interesting. it seems that it was his first intention. i guess that he lowered this a lot for the show. i'll maybe post this song later here so you can hear.

I dont think Hendrix used the Uni-Vibe on 'Who Knows', Which, to me ,epitimizes this WHOLE topic of which output tubes was being made. 'Who Knows' is the most 'primal' tone on Bog's. I dont get the full stack as being responsible for the sound difference. I mean, 8 speakers are more than 4 or 2 or 1, but still, its just reinforcement of the fundamental. I realize that more 'air' is being moved, and that 'more' is going on in respect to the shared signal.

But, then again, Eddie Kramer could capture some GREAT tones. Maybe he was able to capture MORE of the SOUND, since there was MORE of it going on (6 cabs/24 speakers). Us player's think differently than 'unattached' (to the guitar that is) producers.

[Tone seaker]

One thing about BOG nobody has mentioned. Hendrix had a octiva in the chain and just adding that pedal even when its off would effect the tone. He might have had his other pedals in a different order than usual which would also affect the tone. This could be a big part of the unique tone on the BOG recordings

[yngwie308]

Gentlemen, I have special Jimi Hendrix edition of the record collectors guide Goldmine dated Sept 21 1990. which contains various Hendrix articles and related discographies, but of interest to the topic here is an article on the Band of Gypsies written by Michael Fairchild.
This section describes Jimi's onstage signal chain of effects:
"Joseph Sia's split-crotch photo of Hendrix on New Year's Eve gives us a rare glimpse of all four sound effect foot pedals that Hendrix was utilizing on stage at this time.
To the far left is the Vox wah-wah pedal-for transforming guitar tones into muted trumpet-like bass-to-treble alterations; next to that is the custom made Octavia box-for electronically doubling the pitch of guitar notes (Hendrix began to use this new portable Octavia unit in the summer of 1969, but for the first time it is heard on a contract recording is within this second BOG set during "Machine Gun" and "Stone Free", where he applies it to the "Cherokee Mist" melody); a patch cord then connects the wah-wah and Octavia to the round Fuzz-Face distortion unit- for ballooning guitar tones into static feedback; and to the far left is the Univibe pedal, which when depressed accelerates a wavering flutter and turns feedback into swish."
I know the descriptions are somewhat perfunctory of the pedals functions, I have seen this photograph being described though..
yngwie308

[Tone Slinger]

Another thing about the BOG shows is that, Hendrix, never completely sounded like that before or after. This factor gives Eddie Kramer a little credit imo.

Not comparing the style/playing etc, but KISS 'ALIVE!' (also Eddie Kramer) has a similar ambient tone (like say, compare Kiss' 'Nothin To Lose' or 'Watchin' You' to BOG's 'Power Of Soul').

I think the way it was recorded made a difference. I've heard people say that they have heard audience recordings of the famous recordings, and that it sounded the same. If that is indeed true, then Kramer was still involved, because I'm sure Eddie was there soundchecking, making sure the amps were where they needed to be to get the best 'throw' of sound, so that it sounded good in the Fillmore. I'm sure at the pre show soundcheck, that Eddie Kramer was there preparing for the recording. All this, PLUS whatever was done to the post recording mix down.

[Xplorer]

The recording is very good, and Eddie was maybe there ( i've never read anything yet about this ) , but i don't think that he touched the audience recording, coming from two private cameras. didn't you see my topic with a link to download two different audience recording ? it sounds a lot the same. the magic of this tone just existed in the fillmore east, live, and the recording .... was just a nice recording, but imo, that's all.

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[basile865]

I played a 68 bassman into a 1x15 cab today. The speaker was an early 90s fender 15 inch. I was plugged into the bass channel with the deep switch engaged. I'd have to say it was the fattest clean I've ever gotten. I was using my strat and I was blown away really quickly once I flicked it on. It had TAD 6L6's.

I'm not suggesting hendrix was using 15's or anything like that - but it was easily the closest BOG tone I've personally ever gotten. Absolutely gorgeous tone.

I have no idea if it was technically feasible but maybe he was using 6L6's in the plexi's during that concert?

Perhaps in 67 he had the KT66 based amps going on, then he wanted something that tended to hold itself together a little stronger - more headroom less fuzzyness, so he went on to the Sunns shortly but was using the showmans with 2x15 cabs a good bit in 68, then that still wasn't exactly hitting the mark so he went back to the marshall flavor - but took the heart of his fenders - the 6L6, and put it in the marshall. I guess you could argue that the 6L6 is basically an american KT66, but just a thought. I'm assuming the 6L6 would be a little warmer than a 6550. I could be 100 percent wrong, I just was really blown away by the 68 bassman with the 1x15 cab I played today. It was effortlessly fat. I didn't feel like I was striving for a fat tone it was just there. I'm willing to bet if I put an overdrive pedal in front of it my tone search would be straight up over.

[Tone Slinger]

I think that Hendrix' amp tech wouldnt have modded his amps to use 6l6's. It would have been more than just messing with a few resistors to do that.

I do think that Hendrix could have had other el-34 type tubes (meaning pin layout and voltage requirements) like the 6ca7 or the kt-77. The 6550 was obviously hinted at by not only alot of Hendrx' tone from early '69 on, but also by that West Coast amp tech.

The BOG stuff, as well as the Woodstock stuff, seemed just a little 'different' than the earlier, spring '69 tour, as well as the spring/summer '70 tour, which imo was totally a stiffer 6550 type tone.

Still, this is a very speculative topic. The closest tube to a 6l6, tonewise, would probably be a 6ca7. The kt-77 would also rank high, though lack a little clarity and attack as compared to a 6ca7.

The 6ca7 'big bottle' (sylvania/phillips) is, by most accounts, a tube thats constructed almost exactly like a 6l6, but has a el-34 pin layout, and higher operating voltage. It can handle more plate voltage than a 6l6 or el-34, thus giving it a cleaner type tone at similar amp settings. In this way it has a little 6550 type charecter, though not as powerful.


I'm not sure, but I think that since tubes were readily available back then, that Hendrix probably didnt travel with cases of them like artists had to start doing by the mid/late 70's. His people probably went to a drug store or Hardware store, and bought tubes with as much ease and availability as we buy light bulbs nowadays.

That being the case, the American made 6ca7 and 6550 would have been more readily available and cheaper than the British made el-34's and kt-66 or kt-77's.

[Roe]

using 6l6s is a matter of adjusting bias. you may have to change the bias resistor

[yngwie308]

Another thing about the BOG shows is that, Hendrix, never completely sounded like that before or after. This factor gives Eddie Kramer a little credit imo.

Not comparing the style/playing etc, but KISS 'ALIVE!' (also Eddie Kramer) has a similar ambient tone (like say, compare Kiss' 'Nothin To Lose' or 'Watchin' You' to BOG's 'Power Of Soul').

I think the way it was recorded made a difference. I've heard people say that they have heard audience recordings of the famous recordings, and that it sounded the same. If that is indeed true, then Kramer was still involved, because I'm sure Eddie was there soundchecking, making sure the amps were where they needed to be to get the best 'throw' of sound, so that it sounded good in the Fillmore. I'm sure at the pre show soundcheck, that Eddie Kramer was there preparing for the recording. All this, PLUS whatever was done to the post recording mix down.

Billy, you are closer to the mark with the recording angle, also the Rolling Stones mobile , quoted in the infamous "Smoke On The Water".
"Performance, Rockin' The Fillmore is another great live recording, but according to the Derringer, Trower, Gallagher, Marriot book NY Chief and I both have, there was some touching up on the Humble Pie recording.
How we heard it through the live mix board and an audience recording, often differ on other Hendrix concerts.
Personally I have never bought into this power tube argument as it something that doesn't add up to me.
I don't believe any of the roadies even re-biased the amps, ect...??
I told the story of how hard it was to track down Mullard EL 34's in London back in 1970, ect. and that even Jim Marshall's store did not stock valves!
I don't recall Roger Mayer working on Jimi's amps at all, so who was substituting the power tubes or supplying them and why is BOG the pivotal concert for a new Hendrix amp configuration?
many different sources of BOG recordings of the same tunes sound completely different, so the whole thing is very Area 51 to me??
yngwie308

[Purplexi]

I voted 6550 vs 34's but I have to say, I feel it's both. I don't know why it's barely been discussed but chances are(IMO) that Jimi blended a pair of 6550 powered SLP's with some model of EL34 JTM. Not for any reason other than gear availability or he may have found it a good combination. I believe this is what he basically ran for "Rainbow Bridge". Getting back to 6550's, the Dansch clip convinced me. This tone, plus one more and another w/34's near cranked should get it, at least for me.
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplorer]

i can't wait to order some NO 6550, wich i've been told, are far better than modern 6550. but expensive. no doubt it was 6550 tubes for a tube specialist.

But i'm coming with just one theory i'd like to share.
it would hardly be visible on this stage, but this setup could help to get into this tone :

the univibe chorus is in fact a blend between the original signal, and the vibrato, produced with these circuits interacting, with photocells. well, the blend is produced inside the univibe ...

BUT, if you have an amp with the vibrato on, and an amp straight plugged to the guitar, with the guitar that would play both at the same time, you basicaly obtain this leslie effect, but a bit different from the inside blend of the univibe.
now you just have to adjust the volume of the affected amp , the speed, the intensity ...

this is a beautiful sound.
and the vibrato channel of my megavibe is much more transparent than the chorus channel : so the character of the 6550, this low end, played with this setup, could be more present this way, more preserved, while you still have this particular vibe.

why not just having a chorus channel plugged into one amp will you say ?
well , it's different. the vibe is produced acousticaly, i mean in the room, with the the speakers , not electronicaly.

i didn't look again at the cables on stage, but why not ...
at some point, jimi certainly has tryd this setup, he knew, eddie knew, RM knew, how a leslie speaker would work, so they maybe tryed this sometimes.


just hypothesis, suppositions, but it's just to say that the tone is good, and it's worth it.
to me the bog tone is more easy to obtain this way.
And well, it's cool to have a feedback that you control with all the theorys we've told, and also a vibe that you can control, that reacts differently to the ways you play, to the use of fuzz, etc ...
very complex sound, the ultimate use of effects and guitar to me.
kind of an autofilter metaphoricaly.

[Freedom]

and the vibrato channel of my megavibe is much more transparent than the chorus channel : so the character of the 6550, this low end, played with this setup, could be more present this way, more preserved, while you still have this particular vibe.

Hi Adrien...

I think you will like the 6550s and personally and imho the 6550 "theory" is plausible...i had some bad luck with the 6550s but everything seems ok now, i have installed a quad of TS 6550s and i am digging them (big thanks to Billy Batz, him and this thread was the main reason i had to check them out)...

About the Megavibe, if the internal trimmer is cranked (and having owned 2 of them it seems that thats the default setting) you get the most of the effect and the least transparency...i have read guys complaining that the MV is too "effecty" and i know what they mean...i bet there is a reason that none of the other vibes i've owned had the internal trimmer cranked...so if you want a bit more transparency out of your megavibe i suggest to back off a little the internal trimmer...you will get a more natural effect and it still wont be subtle (that's another thing many people complain about other vibes, maybe because the internal trimpot of their vibes have been set on the low side by default, as a matter of fact i had to crank the trimpot quite a bit to my Ultravibe2 to achieve the wanted result, still i didn't set it to max)...

[Xplorer]

Well, i know what you mean, but i like it deep like that too, Without changing thé trimmer, but i was describing something else, that's worth it. Not an electronical blend between a signal and a modifies signal, but a univibe thanks to a 6550 ( or el34 ) amp and a modified 6550 amp ! ........ ; ) it's a différent vibe .... And that's really cool. Try it !