Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

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frenchie
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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Xplorer wrote: all we can see is that the "mic" on this cab, is a shadow of jimi's vocal mic. so evident.
frak .... not ...i surely wouldn't consider a spheric /metallic , factually distant and no matter what soo concentrated refraction on a matte grill cloth beeing this EVIDENT to catch, here you're not honest , you've take months of analysis to prove this fact ...... i ain't got bionic eyes ,nor capture software to find this as evident as you say .......sorry but here ... you're biased and THIS is evident....

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:40 pm

to be honest i still ain't got a frakking clue on how on the pause time i gave a shiney metallic ball could have refracted so well on a grill cloth ...you say caustic ...well i won't venture myself in a scientific explanation i don't have for sure , cuz a caustic refraction on a grill cloth can definitely not be as defined as the same one on a bathtub for example ...i'd just say friggin' strange .....distant refraction of the mic (distant cuz jimi's vocal mic is distant) would obviously have appeared bigger than this , and flubbier/distorted on the grill cloth due to the roughness of it ...best thing i can think of is a mix between the shadow of the vocal mic mixed perhaps with the refraction caused by something metallic closer to the grill cloth than the vocal mic and nonetheless exposed to bright light hardly focusing light rays on the grill cloth .....

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:22 pm

Image

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in this pic you see the typical rig i think jimi used this night ....you've got the contract with sunn forcing him to use their gear during the time this pic was taken , several witnesses saying he used to mix his sunn cabs with his other common greenback cabs to avoid TOO MUCH "beach boys" kind of sound , several other gig pics when jimi uses only this type of sunn jbl cabs as well as sunn heads ... on this pic you've got the sunn cab facing the crowd ( not the best place to monitor anything bassy to say the least ) , which seems to assess jimi actually liked to add a slight touch of sunn to his sound at times (even after the sunn contract ended ) , and there are other later pics of gigs to say this for sure .... you've got impedances of billy's stack during fillmore's assessing the sunn cab couldn't have been plugged to billy's heads ..... the traynor yorkville monitor most probably a voice monitor ( powerfull bass through the only one 12 jbl of the monitor placed hight on an unstable bar seat ?? ...mmmm err ..no ....unless jimi really liked rattling bass sound to guide his playing ? :shock: ) .... so for me the sunn cab is most probably a guitar cab , which during all his sunn cab career have previously been used as a guitar cab with pics proving it, been bought as a guitar cab, been contracted as a guitar cab for jimi 's endorsement by sunn's ceo ...greenback cabs are mic'ed ...that's why i though why not mic'ing the sunn cab too after all, seemed consistent , that's why i didn't spend months of footage analysis to prove there wasn't a mic even if i saw one ....yeah i know ..sounded stupid ! :lol: .....

wanna know my best bet ?

monitoring at the time didn't consisted in feeding a bass signal to a cab close to jimi , too complicated ...it consisted in billy turning one of his cab near him toward jimi , and since billy's heads were at full blast jimi was hearing billy quite well cuz directionnality effect was sufficient ..... and it also consisted in jimi turning one of his cabs near him ( the sunn cab ) toward billy , since jimi's marshall stacks were full blast , the directionnality of the sunn cab was sufficient for billy to hear jimi (don't forget you're also in the case of a closed room at fillmore east , sound refracts everywhere if powerfull enough) , it's also possible that the distance between the place of jimi and the place of billy made jimi choose the brighter sunn cab for a monitor so that billy could hear better through the mix ......

maybe the relatively distant mics recording jimi took a bit of the sunn cab's clean headroom and efficiency , which could explain a slightly different sound on this recording .....just listen to stevie ray vaughn recordings with his vibroverb .... god here you see how much these 15' jbl drivers pump out a pretty clean load of decibels :shock: .. and here that's two of them not just one like stevie's !

this sunn jbl loaded 2X15 is pumping out jimi's guitar signal (for me this fact is too much rock solid now ) , billy could hear it at 10 meters distance through all the "noise" ( it was it's main purpose ) ... so you have it on the record ,faded away or strong depending on the pattern of the effectively recording mics on stage ...but still it's there

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:10 am

the JBL D130f was available only in 4 ohms ,8 ohms or 16 ohms ...what does it indicates us ? ;

4ohms + 4ohms in serie ---> the sunn 2X15 is a 8 ohm good ohmage for superlead but mismatch with billy's 4 ohm cabs , the bass head is in the weeds

4ohms + 4ohms in parallel ---> the sunn cab is a 2 ohms :lol: come on :lol: surely not


8ohms + 8ohms in series ----> the sunn 2X15 is a 16 ohm cab smells like good ohmage for a superlead but in the weeds for a bassman head technically ( fenders don't handle 16 ohms right ? )+ mismatch with billy's 4 ohm cabs


8ohms + 8 ohms in parallel ----> the sunn 2X15 is a 4 ohm cab ( impossible cuz greenback 4X12 are 16 ohms or 8 ohms so jimi could then have never hooked one up to a superlead due to the ohmage mismatch of the greenback cab and the sunn cab , and we know for sure jimi already experimented this , plus only one sunn 2X15 cab is not sufficient to handle a superlead at ful throttle)

16 ohms + 16 ohms in serie ------> the sunn 2X15 is a 32 ohms cab ( mismatch with any greenback 4X12 , and only one sunn cab isn't sufficient with a superlead plus a superlead don't have a 32 ohms selector :roll: )


16 ohms + 16 ohms in parallel -----> the sunn 2X15 is a 8 ohm cab smells still good for a superlead head but in the weeds for the bassman head due to the number of other cabs dedicated to it and the mismatch cuz billy's cabs are 4 ohms

so conclusion ; only three ohmages possible for the sunn cab ; 16 ohms ( 8+8 ) , 8 ohms ( 16//16 ) or 8 ohms ( 4+4 ) ...and for either three solutions the bass head is in the weeds ...


-----> the sunn 2X15 is a guitar cab .......................... right ?

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:21 am

send your picture, let's see it ... try maybe vlc player.
it is caustic, or as there are jbl speakers into this cab, it could be the reflection of the spot light on the shiny part of the speaker, through the grill clothe, but in front of the cab , it isn't a mic !!! it's the shadow of a mic. that's definitely clear.
and please stop your victim attitude de tête à claques, are you 14 ?

frenchie wrote:to be honest i still ain't got a frakking clue on how on the pause time i gave a shiney metallic ball could have refracted so well on a grill cloth ...you say caustic ...well i won't venture myself in a scientific explanation i don't have for sure , cuz a caustic refraction on a grill cloth can definitely not be as defined as the same one on a bathtub for example ...i'd just say friggin' strange .....distant refraction of the mic (distant cuz jimi's vocal mic is distant) would obviously have appeared bigger than this , and flubbier/distorted on the grill cloth due to the roughness of it ...best thing i can think of is a mix between the shadow of the vocal mic mixed perhaps with the refraction caused by something metallic closer to the grill cloth than the vocal mic and nonetheless exposed to bright light hardly focusing light rays on the grill cloth .....
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Xplorer
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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:47 am

yes, it could be, i never said no to this theory.
but i don't see this sunn cab miced. the tone we hear can be heard on the album version, and also on two other different pirate video recording, one from the floor, and one from the balcony ( the pictures i've send ).

frenchie wrote:Image

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in this pic you see the typical rig i think jimi used this night ....you've got the contract with sunn forcing him to use their gear during the time this pic was taken , several witnesses saying he used to mix his sunn cabs with his other common greenback cabs to avoid TOO MUCH "beach boys" kind of sound , several other gig pics when jimi uses only this type of sunn jbl cabs as well as sunn heads ... on this pic you've got the sunn cab facing the crowd ( not the best place to monitor anything bassy to say the least ) , which seems to assess jimi actually liked to add a slight touch of sunn to his sound at times (even after the sunn contract ended ) , and there are other later pics of gigs to say this for sure .... you've got impedances of billy's stack during fillmore's assessing the sunn cab couldn't have been plugged to billy's heads ..... the traynor yorkville monitor most probably a voice monitor ( powerfull bass through the only one 12 jbl of the monitor placed hight on an unstable bar seat ?? ...mmmm err ..no ....unless jimi really liked rattling bass sound to guide his playing ? :shock: ) .... so for me the sunn cab is most probably a guitar cab , which during all his sunn cab career have previously been used as a guitar cab with pics proving it, been bought as a guitar cab, been contracted as a guitar cab for jimi 's endorsement by sunn's ceo ...greenback cabs are mic'ed ...that's why i though why not mic'ing the sunn cab too after all, seemed consistent , that's why i didn't spend months of footage analysis to prove there wasn't a mic even if i saw one ....yeah i know ..sounded stupid ! :lol: .....

wanna know my best bet ?

monitoring at the time didn't consisted in feeding a bass signal to a cab close to jimi , too complicated ...it consisted in billy turning one of his cab near him toward jimi , and since billy's heads were at full blast jimi was hearing billy quite well cuz directionnality effect was sufficient ..... and it also consisted in jimi turning one of his cabs near him ( the sunn cab ) toward billy , since jimi's marshall stacks were full blast , the directionnality of the sunn cab was sufficient for billy to hear jimi (don't forget you're also in the case of a closed room at fillmore east , sound refracts everywhere if powerfull enough) , it's also possible that the distance between the place of jimi and the place of billy made jimi choose the brighter sunn cab for a monitor so that billy could hear better through the mix ......

maybe the relatively distant mics recording jimi took a bit of the sunn cab's clean headroom and efficiency , which could explain a slightly different sound on this recording .....just listen to stevie ray vaughn recordings with his vibroverb .... god here you see how much these 15' jbl drivers pump out a pretty clean load of decibels :shock: .. and here that's two of them not just one like stevie's !

this sunn jbl loaded 2X15 is pumping out jimi's guitar signal (for me this fact is too much rock solid now ) , billy could hear it at 10 meters distance through all the "noise" ( it was it's main purpose ) ... so you have it on the record ,faded away or strong depending on the pattern of the effectively recording mics on stage ...but still it's there

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:30 am

Xplorer wrote: and please stop your victim attitude de tête à claques, are you 14 ?
ok it's been three posts i said nothing other than technical , and you're lauchning again another insult , fuck what have you got in the head , you're trying to make me mad so i can be banned and thread closed or what ? yes on your pic the vocal mic makes A shadow on the grill cloth i never said something against that but there's ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that the metallic ball in the pause time is a caustic refraction cuz it's simply too much concentrated ..... i COULD be but you've got no proof and it's surely not a caustic refraction of the metallic head of the vocal mic ...... there's simply too much of "i think " and " i could " in your post to be considered as a proof ....

man you've posted 4 or 5 entire threads in the hendrix section in 3 months , you seem so much excited about this shit , almost like a five year old in front of a candy store , and you're trying to take everyone as stupid fucks saying " oh well i forgot my post " , whereas you managed to take the time to slip out a bunch of fuzzy captures out of this video and research on an elusive caustic refraction phenomenon to invalid just a tiny tiny of my points during months of time , and after that you're trying to make everyone believe it's not youre main goal in life ..... :lol: ...heck :lol: ....
victim attitude ...tsss ...at least i don't hide my own insults behind the french langage barrier , so it stays looking soft in front of the moderators....when i do i use proper english so everyone can understand ...not really the mark of a victim attitude ....

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:01 am

yes you do it a lot, on almost every post. After i just shared my observation and posted some pictures, i became a little bit anger after your provocations ( to everyone, including me ) when i simply proposed to post some pictures, two days ago ...... ( was it a personnal "attack from me" ? certainly not. ) should i remind you the way you anwser to these simple observations ? don't you take it personnaly and react so bad that i don't appreciate it ? should i remind you the way you over react ? that would be easy. please don't invert roles.
just stop and continue with your analysis on the jbl , that's a bit more interesting. i thought that my advices in french would make you think and calm down, to help you realise that it's ridiculous. that's a service.
And i'm very interested by the hendrix section, that's right. but not the way you caricature it.
you and i could discover a lot in the hendrix section, so are you ok to stop provocations when i say something ?
that would be better

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by ohmygodtheykilledkenny » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:40 pm

No need for arguing, it's simply a topic for discussion. It's totally possible that what we're seeing is a reflection/optical illusion, just as it is completely possible that there's a 15 inch JBL on that stage. The only way to prove things either way would be to do as the Van Halenites to and test the shit out of the theory. Someone has to pony up and snag a 2x15 loaded with weber clones, set it up with the same signal chain as Jimi would've used, and test it out. Otherwise we'll just be chasing our tales till we forget why we did it in the first place. Naturally it's gotta be someone with more than one head, or someone who is close enough to another forumite to collaborate with.
If yer ears ain't ringing, yer amp ain't singing! -JimiJames

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:44 pm

yes that would be great.
we still have to do with what we have for now, but ... maybe if randy hansen would be agree to participate ... ? that could be a good idea if he's ok for that.
he's got the gears, the style ... he's passionate ...

my feeling is that with some jbl, with a loud clean tone, and some usual cabs with saturation and feedback when jimi moves his guitar in a way or another ( see how calm he is, compared to some other shows ? here, he seems to control the sound spots ), could let him go from some clean to more dirty sounds, and also catch some sustain that can't end for our pleasure. playing with this, and the effects that also play with this. that would be something that many guitarists and tone master would certainly love to play, to have all the best aspects of a stratocaster tone with a marshall. i'd love to try this.

i don't have any problm with the jbl theory. but i just don't see it miced, and anyway it doesn't matter : the sound was the synthesis of all this, and we can hear it on three or even four different sources from this concert. this isn't just a sunn cab miced that we hear into the album. Frenchie, out of our little fights, developped some nice possibilitys about the setup on this stage.

now, if we try all of that we've said, we would certainly not be very far of this tone we like. we should still search and try, even if we all talked a allrady a lot on this subject.
with a 69 plexi , stock , and with the shared cathode, well it's just awsome anyway for me, and i don't need as much as before to get close to this tone. now i'm enjoying it and play some improvisations, also with some hendrix accents i love for my guitar. that's not a shity sound for sure !

on saturday i'm gonna have lunch with two old guys, and my friend, drummer, percussionist. it's his grandfathe and his old employee. they used to build some french tube amps in the 40' , 50', 60'. garen, stimmer, shades. it's about talking of all this, because i wanted to meet them and learn so many things, and they love to talk about this.
i mean, this guy used to make les paul amps ! and django reinhardt amps ! and pickups ! still alive. i'm gonna ask him if he was friend with jim marshall too.

i've tryed one of his amps, and it's a pure vintage fenderish tone, awsome !

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:13 pm

[quote="ohmygodtheykilledkenny" The only way to prove things either way would be to do as the Van Halenites to and test the shit out of the theory. Someone has to pony up and snag a 2x15 loaded with weber clones, set it up with the same signal chain as Jimi would've used, and test it out.[/quote]

fact is ...this kind of tone testing has already been done , with jbls and all and it's pretty much spot on it seems..... but you're damn right friend the fight about it is starting to annoy me too..

so a tiny and last reminder to set it crystal clear :

fact (1) on a bar seat next jimi there's a traynor yorkville monitor with only one jbl D120f in it ( this is well documented earlier )---> voice monitor ( not workable for bass cuz too weak , and would be obviously useless for guitar since there are already three stacks pushing violent DBs behind jimi )

fact (2) there's a sunn 2X15 at jimi's right ...loaded with jbl D130f 15' drivers with aluminium dust caps which you can easily see through the grill cloth ( this also documented )
----> cannot be connected to any of billy's bass heads due to a mess of impedances making it technically impossible ( won't go again on this it's too late , scroll up and see my previous posts, plus i made it clear enough....it's 1+1=2 type of shit ) so it's not a bass monitor it cannot .
----> the traynor yorkville monitor already works to provide voice signal to jimi's ear , no use for a second one who would be louder , doesn't make sense , two cabs overdubbing each other with the same signal in the same direction ?...the sunn cab isn't a voice monitor .
====> so the sunn 2X15 is hooked to one of jimi's superlead ( the only possiblility left ) and it's use is to throw away guitar sound to billy cox ... hence billy's direction it is turned toward

so the sunn 2X15 cab pumps out a wild stratocaster guitar sound as the other greenback marshall cabs behind jimi also do ...




little parenthesis 1;
to the guy ( perhaps no one also ) who will try something like " maybe the sunn cab was there just to sit an ass on , and not for pumping out any sound " i'd say , to my knowledge , jimi didn't stock his own gear into the fillmore east reserve .....so i guess if jimi's roadies bothered their asses to bring there such an heavy cab beast it surely isn't just for the beauty of watching the sunn cab standing proudly unseen on dark side of the stage ...right ? if jimi wanted to sit an ass i guess he was smart enough to ask for a lighter seat , not going as far as breaking the back of his roadies asking them to carry a long way a useless cab ... it makes hell of a sense beeing put like this no !.... so the sunn cab is not a dummy either

little parenthesis 2;
if some still really think astronomers discovered black holes , cuz they put one of their fingers in one and came to the conclusion it was sucking up matter ..... errrrr .... in fact , elimination , proof by the absurd ,observation of what's around it , deduction , is more or less involved in this discovery to say the least :lol: fact is ....indirect proof IS a valid scientific proof .... we never have touched a black hole , nor heard , nor seen one , never put a finger in one to see what happens .... still .....dunno why :lol: ....a lot of cleaver guys at the M.I.T believe black holes effectively exist , they would bet a pretty billion dollar on it .... and it also seems .....everyone agrees with them ...freakin' mad no ? :shock:

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:01 am

xplorer ... thanks a million for posting those pics

I quite enjoy discussing Hendrix tone but quite frankly am not interested in the agressive religious approach some take
when discussing the divine revelations from their GOD

Hendrix was a great player and he surrounded himself with smart people like Roger Mayer who helped him craft his sounds

Like the van halen guys we need to get out there and test these setups and give them a listen

especially make sound clips ... and share them

then craft our own sounds

I will tease with one

this is a little clip a friend did using some Ideas I suggested after thinking long and hard about the BOG sound
notice none of the gear is "officially correct" the guitar is a PRS, the amp a traynor and the overdrive a tube screamer

The goal was to create a sound that would hit the ceiling and not come down till the player let go... as you hear in
Machine Gun ... the sound is not created by excessive gain even though it sounds like that is the case

The goal was not the MG tone but the MG type sustain in a portable club sized amp

with a standard fuzz face the effect would be much closer with more bass content and more character

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X0gB_cGDz0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FWIW there was an alnico RED FANG in the Traynor ... though it could be done with an EV or JBL
the speaker choice is not relevant to tuning the amp so it sings properly
the tuning process used would have been childs play to Roger Mayer and is based on how
engineers though about live sound in the 60's ... stuff we have forgotten

p
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by ohmygodtheykilledkenny » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:29 am

Yeah, discussing Jimi tone is cool.

Xplorer: Hope you enjoy the meeting with those tube amp gurus! That'd be cool. I've had the chance to talk with a few local guys here in Winnipeg who've been on the scene for eons, and they've always got some cool stories.

Frenchie: Nice black hole analogy, really good point! What'd be cool would be if we could get enough participants (problematic due to the fact that the world is not confined to one city) from the forum to rent out an old theatre (we've got a few in Winnipeg), and have George supply some sweet 69' spec leads and his true replica 412s (I'd pay for all this of course, with my theoretical lottery winnings :lol: ), along with a couple SUNN cab clones, and try out a bunch of different stage configurations, to see what gets us closest. We'd even one up the Ed heads that way. :lol:

Parkhead: Nice clip! I always have trouble getting feedbacky sustain like that! Any tips?

Travis
If yer ears ain't ringing, yer amp ain't singing! -JimiJames

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:59 am

Now i wonder wich amps were linked to wich cabs ... and the sunn cab : linked to wich amp allready linked with a 4x12 or 2 ? in wich position ?
and some amps with 6550 and some with el34 ? all shared cathode ? some superlead, some superbasse ?
i don't think about wich one was miced, i don't find interest into this because the synthesis of this tone could be heard on different sources, in different places at the fillmore east. ( by the way, it sounds different when near the sunn cab, with the floor video, that the balcony video, interesting.
i'll try to see where the cables go, in the different videos.

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Michael Patrick » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:07 am

More photographic evidence...

Image
This space for rent

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