Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

[frenchie]

hope jim gonna chime in ....i think this time i spotted the "mystery" black box on the bar seat at the right of jimi ..... it's a traynor yorkville YSM-1 loaded with only one jbl 12' speaker ...and it's a wedge monitor .....if you read here at the bottom of the page ;
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?t ... =46&id=297" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
you can read the first wedge monitors ever produced in 1969 and had the unique particularity of having "two different up facing angles " ....another article on the history of traynor /yorkville into these years ;
http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~da ... istory.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

now , looking at this video ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcgTnFp3nTE&feature=fvw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
at 5m 48 you pose and see clearly the two angles

in this video ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LImMBtVP ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

make a pose at 1m35 and you can see the back of this thing even more precisely ....there's just one cable going to it so it's clearly a yorkville wedge monitor ( one of the first ones ... not even production ones ) .....i could give a lot of other pauses times in the fillmore east's utube videos which show the two angles clearly too ... there's also another pause time where you can see the dustcap of the speaker into the wedge , it was hard to see cuz the black grillcloth of this wedge is very dense ...... i think jimi put it onto a bar seat for a better hearing ..

it think here we've got our suspected bass or voice monitor for jimi .....but maybe i'm wrong " who knows " like would say a famous hendrix song of this particular night

[basile865]

someone recently told me that hendrix would put a speaker cab on the side of him to create sortve a T formation from his amps and himself. Or I guess an L. Apparently if you stand right at the intersection of the two cabs you'll get great sustain. He did have a cab facing his side at woodstock. According to the guy I was talking with some of his cabs were dummy ones in the 3 stack backline and he'd run one head into the side speaker/monitor which would allow him to get that massive sustain and feedback.

[frenchie]

someone recently told me that hendrix would put a speaker cab on the side of him to create sortve a T formation from his amps and himself. Or I guess an L. Apparently if you stand right at the intersection of the two cabs you'll get great sustain. He did have a cab facing his side at woodstock. According to the guy I was talking with some of his cabs were dummy ones in the 3 stack backline and he'd run one head into the side speaker/monitor which would allow him to get that massive sustain and feedback.

yep basile ...wouldn't be astonished by something like that , the cool thing now as things move further is that now we are quite sure ( 99.9 per 100 chances ) there's a mic'ed 2X15 jbl cab and a lifted up 1X12 monitor on his right ...i'm less and less sure the mic'ed 2X15 was here for monitoring purpose ( hey plus it's mic'ed ..don't see the point in mic'ing a monitor right ? )...

[Xplorer]

Great investigation on the yorkville stuffs frenchie...
i suspected such thing previously, the angle between cabs, T or L , this sweet spot . But it was just by feeling. I'm glad you guys went as far. i'd love to test this kind of setup one day, closest conditions.
i'll get an extremely good univibe clone soon, from a guy in pigalle, and it'll be great with that. it's just that i endly found the right one. i'll talk about it in the right topic later.

[parkhead]

someone recently told me that hendrix would put a speaker cab on the side of him to create sortve a T formation from his amps and himself. Or I guess an L. Apparently if you stand right at the intersection of the two cabs you'll get great sustain. He did have a cab facing his side at woodstock. According to the guy I was talking with some of his cabs were dummy ones in the 3 stack backline and he'd run one head into the side speaker/monitor which would allow him to get that massive sustain and feedback.

The trouble with this idea is that Dummy cabs were a totally non existent concept in 1969-70...

Spare heads, yes dummy cabs no ... not with one or two roadies and a station wagon or 5 ton truck to carry all the gear...

Dummy cabs are a product of the "Kiss Grand stage" show that happened in the late 70's ...

Regarding JBL's those ali dust caps sound terrible when you hit them with Fuzz and you don't hear that on these

recordings...

also keep in mind the amps were not miced for PA purposes so the backline was there to fill the house sound

most JBL users are clean players country ect... with current distortion playing almost no one uses JBL's

If you want to try JBL's go ahead ...then you will understand why distortion players dislike them


Also keep in mind the slash setup used in the studio ...

a splitter was used to send guitar signal to a marshall and a boogie, the boogie was in the control room next to slash

the marshall was in the studio and mic'ed for recording... when slash wanted feedback he'd move toward the boogie

because the input signal is shared the marshall would seem to feedback as well BUT with a cleaner/ marshall sound

One of the reasons Hendrix great sounds are hard to duplicate is because he used two or Three marshalls

Like slash, if one amp is set up to drive into feedback, but the "clean" amp is mic'ed for recording you get all the drive

with a very "clean/ together tone"

Personally I think he used early Shared cathode amps for the main body of his tone and mixed in later agressive split

cathode amps for more cutting tones... the blends of those sounds are what you hear

p

[frenchie]

Regarding JBL's those ali dust caps sound terrible when you hit them with Fuzz and you don't hear that on these

recordings...

......

yeah ...it's well know that stevie ray vaughn 's fenders sounded like ass .......and also hear the 15 jbls ;......and i underlign 15" jbls cuz it wasn't 12" jbls which obviously makes a difference , and everyone to me here constantly talk about their "harsh " experience with the 12" which is obviously not the 15" for obvious radius , diameter and circumference related reasons ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FcJKQ0k6ok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


yeah there's mic distortion on this old vid .... but FACT is jimi used these cones several times after the end of his contract with sunn...i guess if it's been good for jimi ,then it's good enough for jimi ...seriously now can we stop the bullshit and concentrate on pure real facts ... jimi mixed 15" jbls with greenback cabs on a large chunk of gigs between 67 and the end of 68 , i doubt you're able to spot the times they were used by only by ear ....take no offense but i seriously doubt ....cuz there's the rosewood/ maple transition , shared /split cathode thing too ...lots of parameters ....lots of techniques to tame bright speakers too , even style of playing ( light picking and shit ) ...you never know until you get the pure FACTS ....and the fact is the JBL2X15 cab on jimi's right surely wasn't here to sit an ass on , and by the way was mic'ed....and there was already a monitor on a chair .....THIS is fact....

now look that "fizzy" gig where he makes extensive use of the fuzz face , and look the big 2X15 sunn jbl loaded ""monitors"" on his right ....;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_mFO4fW ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

what a shitty edgy fizzy sound no ?

[parkhead]

Hey thanks for spotting the Yorkville Traynor monitor on stage at the BOG show.

I always thought it was one but since Pete Traynor never mentioned it it, I also though it might be something else.

Pete has some interesting Jimi stories & always comments how advanced his knowledge of engineering and audio was

especially for someone who was infamously known for his flamboyant stage show.

Regarding the side wash JBL 15 cab's: yes you see them at various shows, but keep in mind that most of the articles

indicate that cabinets were criss crossed across the stage ie that they would have been so Jimi could hear the bass.

FWIW Buck munger who set up the Sunn deal with Hendrix has said "... 10 speaker cabinets with two jbl D130f's. "We

then went to 4 eminence 12's at his request," (ie ten cabinets... not 10 inch cabs)

Regarding the newport show and the "Horrible" guitar tone... in My experiments with JBL's that shrill rasp is what the ali

dust cap produces. In the video you can clearly see that the JBL is mic'ed right on the dust cap. Yes the board and mic

may be distorting but the JBL is contributing to that midrange rasp.

Would those cabinet work to help project the sound more effectively in an outdoor venue? yes, quite possibly.


I won't comment too much more on this since any discussion of Hendrix, Clapton or EVH tends to get very emotional for

people and they take it very personally.

Everyone's input is appreciated, I once swore that EV's were too Harsh for guitar and now blend them with old celestions

for good projection, so anything is possible when trying to fill larger venues. Celstions tend to produce a better tone when

close mic'ed for recording.

I don't think anyone should take all this stuff too seriously, and certainly not personally.

The Albert Hall lover man clip is a Perfect example of the well publisized classic setup for the band.

-3sets of Cabs for Jimi/ stacks for Jimi (possibly 2 heads running 8 cabs, and a spare head)
(the outside marshall head does not appear to have an input) (and yes they built them with 4 speaker jacks)

-Marshalls and sunns for Noel
a couple of 4-12's on Noels side so he can hear Jimi

some bass cabinets on Jimi's side so he can Hear Noel

and Two Altec Voice of the theater bins behind Mitch to monitor his drums? with at least one sunn head on top of those.

Wem column Cabinets sidewashed for vocals monitoring

Side washing the bass Cabs from the guitar side makes perfect sense since the bass wavelengths are longer
the cabs would be heard better from the drum and bass position at that distance

the outer bottom 4-12 is miced for hendrix for the recording & since they are in England the speaker is 99% a celestion in that cab ....

Keep in mind to get a balance in a large hall Low Frequencies need about 10x the power of guitar to be heard clearly in

those days it was a massive problem since 200 watt tube power amps were the cutting edge of "big power"

BTW the other possiblity for the wedge monitor at the BOG show is Cerwin Vega... since Gene Cerwinski and Pete Traynor

were good buddies and shared a lot of Ideas round about that time. They had an exchange program where Pete would

design electronics and Gene would design acoustic enclosures. Some of the super high end/pro Traynor boxes were

Loaded with Cerwin Vega drivers as part of this program.

p

[frenchie]

sure thing about the emotionnal thing , that's why i try to always concentrate on facts rather than subjective expectations , my scientific studies shows up here in my approach ....but if i sound emotionnal here it's just because ... well read the pages before and you'll see ... gathering real information on this subject could be very usefull to avoid agressive ,painfull and pointless discussions about this subject ...i think you'll agree on this...now about the sunn crew beeing jackasses that didn't know shit even about their own stuff i agree too... talking about 2X10 loaded with 15"jbls D130f is pretty self explanatory ...now the newport gig was FENDER heads on jbls , and it's heavyly distorted by the camera mic so it's just a proof of use of jbls cabs for guitar rather than a real clue of what a marshall head sounds into greenback cabs + 15" jbl cabs which is a completely different thing , even more in the case of the fillmore east gig since the fact it was mic'ed indicated that the jbl cab could have possibly been thrown in the recording mix to accentuate certain frequencies or give a clean edge to the notes ... but after that i'd say i'm really not into the favor of the use of jbl cab monitoring bass , cuz for me if you wanna record bass , you don't mic the guitarist's monitor , but the bass stack directly ...but i may be stupid ..

[parkhead]

Re newport

"Camera mic's" as we know them existed in 1970

That would have been a TV type camera with separate video recorder and is likely a board feed since the camera

would have been huge, and not very portable and looks like its where the PA board would be.

There are existing video camera shots of the BOG shows but that would have been cutting edge technology and was not

very portable yet those shots are Black and White.

I would agree 100% that anything we see that does not make sense needs investigation, perhaps jimi did like a little 15 inch

jBL blended with his 4-12's since the use of a mic means that some signal? was being recorded or re amplified.

The more logical possibilty was that was where the recordist decided he would get his best Mic'ed bass signal.

While Eddie Kramer was Blending Multiple guitar mics very early in the recording studio some further experimentation is

required to judge the validity of the approach to duplicate those tones. Further, one of the big problems with many of the

live recordings per Kramer is that the mobile boards ran out of inputs very fast so something was always compromised.

Given that the intention of the BOG show was to produce a finished master to get Capitol off their Backs & that they

were in New York they would have solved most of their "problems" and done the recording right.

So break out those sun JBL 2-15 cabs and lets hear how they mic up in stereo with a Marshall.

I do know that a JBL 15 would record better for bass than a celestion 12, but DI would be even cleaner and invisible to us.

I will remain in doubt till someone has a clip that "blows my socks off" and that would be "Facts" enough for me.

Those old articles are helpful but written by non technical journalists interviewing.. technical people like (Buck Munger)

who didn't get Hendrix. If Sunn had "got Hendrix" imagine the amp they would have come up with to satisfy him.


p

[frenchie]

Re newport

"Camera mic's" as we know them existed in 1970

xcuz ..my bad

I would agree 100% that anything we see that does not make sense needs investigation,

wow ....+1000000...........

So break out those sun JBL 2-15 cabs and lets hear how they mic up in stereo with a Marshall.

again ....+1000000....


and i'd add , i will gladly shut the fuck up the day someone will prove me the jbl cab was for bass by A+B or photo evidence....cuz i love truth .....

fair enough parkhead..

[Michael Patrick]

[frenchie]

white cord going from the marshall stack to the side of the jbl cab .....but veeeeery long white cable going from bassist's stack to "near" the jbl cab ....mmmm quite puzzling pic ...but nice also ...you also see that there's another traynor double up facing angle monitor in front of the bassist ...

[parkhead]

four bassman 100 heads
a showman reverb 100 head
and a twin reverb on Billies side...

If we can fingure out the Impedance of those 2-15 sunn? cabs
we can work out Billy's configuration...
since the Fenders are not switchable impedance

So Far the twin supports the Crosswash technique
with Jimi's signal being fed to the twin

and the 2-15 cab beside Jimi being fed with the output of one of those Fender heads

P

[Michael Patrick]

Interestingly, Billy has four Fender heads that are the same size (Bassmans?), one that is in a bigger cab (Showman Reverb head?), and then the combo on the bottom (Twin?).

[parkhead]

and Guild quantum Bass Cabs !

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h ... G%26um%3D1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;