What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

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Xplorer
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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by Xplorer » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:11 pm

correction : i think i can see these stickers behind the amps of band of gypsys at the Fillmore east. but i'm still thinking of a 45/100 being used at some point.
BUT, i didn't try what you did for Jimi yet , with some 6550 , more power .... different speakers ...

we'd love to hear these storys again, please :)

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by daveweyer » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:28 pm

Okay, here is one bit of info to answer the big mystery of the red Fuzzface with the white knobs. When the fuzz came in to West Coast Organ and Amp, the knobs were smashed. We were in quite a rush to finish stuff for Woodstock, and didn't have any more stock parts, so I grabbed a couple of white knobs from some our guitar parts stock and installed them on the unit. It may have had the pots replaced at the time too if the shafts were busted off, and if so, the pots were probably Allen Bradley, since we had a big stock of those.
The unit probably had Roger Mayer's mod, or my mod, if mine then the transistors were most likely 2N525 GE germaniums, since they were less noisy and had more consistency; the output cap would have been a .047 and the input cap a 4.7, and there was likely an input resistor, (up to 50K or so) since the Fuzzface loaded down the guitar output and changed the sound and liveness of the sustain. It likely would have had a larger collector load on the second transistor for more gain, either that or the voltage divider of the second transistor collector load would have been altered to send more of the signal out to the gain pot.
As you may know, Jimi liked the throaty sound better, hence the use of bass speakers more bass in the fuzz face, and darker range in his Wah Wah pedals.
And as I've mentioned before, more gain, but not so much fuzz. The fuzz control was usually near zero when the box of pedals came in to West Coast Amp for rebuilding.
If you're looking to recreate Jimi's sound, try to get it with very little fuzz using your gain to overdrive the amp tube stages.
DW

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by Xplorer » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:59 pm

i'm amazed, to read this story behind the red fuzz face, i didn't imagine we would know one day. That's so cool, thank you Dave !

it's very interesting to see that from what you experience, Jimi used very little fuzz, but mainly fuzz volume to push the input of the amps.
But anyway, we can still hear some fuzz and that's what i thought : germanium for Woodstock, not silicon.
and you mention an input resistor, up to 50k, bleeding to the ground ? so it'd totaly make sense also about his wah allways working in front of his fuzz ...
i usualy put an even higher resistor in form of a pot, maybe 250k or even more, to let the fuzz work with a wah in front of it, and preserve the guitar signal a bit, it works great.
so it sounds like quite a classic fuzz after all, but the fillmor east fuzz ... this one seems different from every others , these never ending notes, the way it reacts ... clean although not clean at all, very wierd, wonderful fuzz and Genius use of it.

i have to try ! usualy i set the fuzz quite high, but rolled down the strat volume instead, to get some still cool sounds, colored signal, and nice creamy / clean tones, kinda castle made of sand, little wing ...

about the speakers, i'm surprised that they were basse, even if it's commonly said. Because at least with a 45/100, i've heard a comparison between some 55hz g12h30 and some 75 hz, all pre rola. the 75hz were definitely more hendrixy and bog than the basse, and playing mine, that's what i hear too. the basse ones sounded like they were used on some more specific and rare occasions or périods ...

i noticed that you said you'd tell us the story behind the Governor amp, i'm thrilled. and about throaty bassy wahs too :toast:

Maybe, could we invite you to do a nbrand ew personal thread about your experience and gears / electronic ? Hendrix , the others .... :jimi:
this is certainly the most important subject here, and you're the one with all the answers to the various discussions we had here.

thank you Dave

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by daveweyer » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:14 pm

The input resistor goes between the guitar and the input transistor base. The reason is that the feedback,(through the 100K resistor) if the fuzz pot is turned down, creates a very low impedance at the base of the transistor; essentially it amounts to an AC ground, and it is only the current generated in the guitar pickup which must overcome the current in the 100K resistor to get any signal out of the transistor. This is the summing amp principle; Brad Plunket at Thomas Organ Co used to call it the Zero impedance amp. (You remember him, right? He invented the Wah Wah)
Anyway, the guitar pickup sounds by far the best, most open, longest apparent sustain, with a very high impedance input, like 100 megohms if you can get it. (you can, but it requires a special circuit) Just the opposite of the Fuzzface at the low fuzz setting, which is basically a dead short from an AC perspective. A Marshall may have a 1 megohm input impedance, which is really good for guitar pickups.
SO all this leads to driving the fuzz with another circuit which has enough power not to care about the low input impedance of the fuzz, and which allows the guitar pickup to breathe because it has a higher input impedance.
One result of the input resistor is a much more gradual and smoother fuzz.
If you drive the fuzz with a Wah or a circuit with any driving power i.e. a low impedance source, it essentially shorts out the feedback to the first transistor, and the gain goes through the roof. So much saturation you really can't use it.
That's one reason the fuzz gain was turned down on Jimi's pedals.
One solution I did for Gary Rowles, who did the Olympic sessions with Jimi in April of '70 and who did the John Mayall Blues Breaker tour, Love and so on, was a super high impedance amp within the Strat body, It could drive either high or low impedance inputs and save the guitar pickup from having to drive anything but itself (almost).
I probably would have done the same for Jimi, but we didn't have time.
DW

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by swankmotee » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:25 pm

While I very much appreciate your history with Hendrix I factually say that anyone who had practical experience using fuzz faces to emulate Jimis tones knows he most definitely cranked the fuzz control to the max for the majority of his live work but in recording did adjust it over the full useful range. You cannot get the Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock with the fuzz turned down !

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by daveweyer » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:55 am

Swankmotee,
I totally understand your position on the amount of Fuzz needed for tunes like Star Spangled Banner. You may actually know more about his setups than I do.
I was just sharing what I learned from Jimi, and what his box of twenty Fuzzfaces revealed when they came into West Coast Organ and Amplifier Service for repair and mods.
It all may have to do with the extra gain that was built into the pedals on the second transistor stage, which really meant that the fuzz didn't need to be turned all the way up to completely overdrive the amp inputs, this and the inevitable result of plugging in a device to the input of the fuzz which had a lower impedance than a guitar pickup and which would therefore have the same effect as turning the first transistor's gain up with the fuzz knob i.e. swamping the AC current in the 100K feedback resistor.
My thoughts always return to the simple idea that if Jimi's setup was totally understood, and has been able to be recreated by guitar players everywhere who are completely mesmerized by the sound and tones of Jimi's guitars, amps, and effects, then why has the discussion been raging all these years about how he got his sound?
It seems to me that if it has been decided that he did this or that, with this or that device, then everyone would have his tone, be able to play The Star Spangled Banner, and be completely satisfied that they'd nailed it.
These discussion boards could then go silent.
Maybe everyone actually already has his tone nailed and just can't really believe they've done it.
DW

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by Xplorer » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:48 pm

i'll build such fuzz and test it, before talking and it sounds like an exciting project.

from our ears ( some of us ), we think that his cabs were often loaded with some g12h30 75hz, and we can "get there" for several tones we love, but there are fortunately some fields that remain unexplored i'm sure, and i fully understand your point.
Even Randy Hansen sounds like Randy Hansen actualy .. not completely Hendrix.

while i'm in the middle of a second JTM 45/100 build , may i ask you what you would have done on some Jimi's 45/100 ? and maybe you had them in your hands ?
for now, i've seen these 470 ohms instead of 1k 5w on the power tubes, but judging from what you've said earlier, i should rather go for some higher value to lower the screen voltage, and high plate voltage ? i'm at about 500 volts on them.

what about the governor and other cool storys :) ?

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by daveweyer » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:02 pm

Maybe we should start a new topic and get right down to the stories, mods, and speculations. What would be an appropriate (cool) subject title to bring as many on board as possible to contribute?
DW

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by Xplorer » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:46 pm

yes , that's a very good idea, let's go for it :)

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by Tone seaker » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:57 pm

Yes do it please. Maybe call it Hendrix's equipment. He definitely ran the out put/ volume way up on the Fuzz. You can hear it on the Woodstock video when he cuts the fuzz off during Viola Junction and every thing drops instantaneously drastically
Last edited by Tone seaker on Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by swankmotee » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:37 pm

I'm sorry, output of the wah? The wah is fixed output signal and the volume drop you here is where he cuts off the Fuzzface which is very telling as to how he ran it....wide open fuzz and volume.

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by Tone seaker » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:39 pm

:jimi:

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by daveweyer » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:39 pm

Okay, Swankmotee is sure that Jimi used the fuzz and gain both all the way up. Maybe he's right.
It's not what I learned from Jimi, or his pedals, but it could be.
But here's the thing, if you take more of the output signal from the voltage divider on the second transistor, and/or raise the value of the collector resistor on the second transistor, you don't need ANY fuzz turned up to completely blast the Marshall into a giant powered tube fuzz tone. Furthermore, if you take the output of a Wah, and put it into the input of the Fuzzface, as soon as you put the Wah into the ON mode, the gain of the Fuzzface goes up. That's right. you can get a volume change by just turning on the Wah without touching the Fuzzface.
So if those Fuzzfaces Jimi used were modded, and they were, there was absolutely no need to turn the Fuzz control up.
If you don't believe me, just substitute a 10K pot for the 8.2 K resistor on the collector of the second transistor, and start taking more of the signal from the collector into the output jack. You can get an immense amount of signal to send to your Marshall.
Jimi used to say he didn't like the "shitty buzzy sound" that too much input gain on the Fuzzface got.
He had an ear for the sweet spot, and always had me or other techs tweaking things to get him where he wanted to go.

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by mathd » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:05 pm

Interesting discussion :).
Am ready for a new Stories, mods and speculations topic hehe.

Welcome to the forum Dave Weyer, your knowledges is going to be really helpful to the community!
Mathieu

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Re: What Amp Do I Buy To Get Hendrix At Woodstock Tone?

Post by swankmotee » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:15 pm

First off let me say a big hello to you Dave and how honored we all are for you taking the time to write about your experience and history with Jimi's gear! This is something most of us Hendrix geeks only dream off since so much conjecture,misinformation, and general B.S. from persons who know nothing of electronics gets printed in forums that the general public takes as gospel. I truly am excited and look forward to maybe peeling back some layers of the mystery and shed some light on the possible answers to the puzzle.
I am a long time devotee of Jimi's music and gear and spent many years collecting and tweaking all the standard stuff he used and have a lot of knowledge on the subject which I am more than happy to share here and hope it will help anyone trying to get to Jimi's tones since I have found them to be easily attainable if you have the time and money and also a grasp of his touch which none of us will ever duplicate! As far as Fuzzfaces go, there were the two basic tones we all know of the early germainum types and then the later silicon version. Since none of us were there to actually see what his techs or Roger Mayer did to these things I can only go by the audio,films, and personal trial and error in chasing down the tones and they are all over the map. What I've found after owning vintage versions is that it usually really boils down to the trannies gain and quality of distorting that is the heart of the sound and whether it will be a decent sounding example. Since NKT275 trannies were so cheap and temperature sensitive they always morphed up and down in fuzz response due to battery interaction (voltage level,capacitance,resistance) which drastically changed the amount, intensity,and quality of fuzz. Most of the vintage ones still in existence don't sound very good anymore or are close but no cigar to the original tones they produced when the cans were in newer,fresher condition. They are leaky and weak gain wise and are apt to oscillate at higher settings.
Silicon versions like the BC108 and other variants have the oscillation problem from the get go due to their higher gain and mismatching since they threw in whatever they had and didn't pay any attention to biasing or gain matching so you're really lucky if you find a good sounding one! I noticed that when Jimi starting using these versions you noticed a lot of oscillation "squeal" and "cut out of signal" when he turned up and I think this is the reason you saw the fuzz knob turned down a lot because he was backing off until the squeal went away and full signal returned. The fuzz effect is maxed out anyway and the extra knob turning doesn't add anything anyway and as you said he definitely used his ear to dial in the amount of fuzz per the hall acoustics or other enviromental issues he was dealing with. Of course there were a lot of other issues that he and anyone else who owns the same equipment from that era knows about like crappy curly cables with their huge capacitance,Marshall 100 watt amps in varying states of conditon due to voltage flucuations and tube issues,Celestion speakers that were constantly wearing out,temp changes,and a host of other gremlins that can keep things from sounding optimum!
After a lot of reading and fact checking I tweaked a 69' vintage Fuzzface ala Roger Mayer's so called "White Knob" version that really sounds very close to the sonics of that pedal. I simply dropped a PNP silicon 2N2907A transistor into the V1 slot and it sounded much more dynamic,enharmonically clear but with a huge amount of fuzz! This was based on Mayer's description of what later became his "Axis" fuzz which he claimed the BOG version was based on. This made sense to me in that the first stage has no real tonal effect but can make a big difference in clarity of signal being passed onto the second distortion stage where the PNP germainium AC128 I used sounded great. But, once again the tone and quality of fuzz varies due to temp and battery type and voltage level so I still have to adjust it to taste and I have a bias control installed on V2 for more tweakability to taste. And yes I have recordings of it in action and am glad to share them if folks so desire. Anyway, just a starter post since I've got to get back to building pedals for Mr. Paul Cochrane which is my part time gig. Please keep sending us some more stories and details of your work on Mr. Hendrix's gear and thanks again for your time! :rock:
http://youtu.be/TzNi4bycAlo

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