van halen first album tone

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alaverinth
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van halen first album tone

Post by alaverinth » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:52 pm

What is the best way to get a reissue amp to sound like the vanhalen first album? I imagine a shared cathode arrangement(is this necessary?), but what about the filter cap values? I have heard of changing the filters under the board, by the fuses and for the screens to 32x32, will this help? what other values need to be changed on a 68 board/69 board? has anyone experimented? I understand what it takes as far as speakers and pickups, I'm just trying to get the amp up to snuff? I have heard this tone from stock vintage marshalls without a variac. any help would be great.

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Post by Billy Batz » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:42 pm

This is a subject thats more severely worn out on forums like this then anything else by far alaverinth. No offense. Lets put it this way. More then any other tone out there people have been seeking it for 20+ years. Ill just tell you right now to get that sound means to do some dangerous things with your amp and personally Ive found more often then not when people do 'truly' nail it, their a bit disappointed or their surprised with it not what they thought. The other VH albums are much more attainable and safe and easy to acheive. People seem to like to play with those album sounds more as well because the sounds more balanced. Heres some basics.

Most people feel they get the basic brown sound better with the later split cathode circuit amps and many times with a frown curve EQ before the amps input to give a little boost to the midrange (as VH was said to do.) If you want I can send you some schems of older JTM amps and give you whats most widely accepted to be the values of the VH club days amp from VH1. Its a pretty typical JTM100 amp.

One thing youll notice if you start changing the amp to reflect JTM values is the gain lessens, the sound becomes a bit smoother and less aggressive overall and the bass becomes very boomey and flabby. This is normal. One thing that balanced these amps out were the OTs. Another was the increased negative feedback (27k on the 8ohm tap was pretty common.) Even though the VH1 tone sounds pretty balanced on record its actually very trebly and thin. EVH has complained about this in articles stating that he had little to do with the tone on the first record and regrets how the engineers ran the show and how the 1984 album was more the 'Marshall' sound he was aiming for. Then again that article was probably from 1984. See what I mean. He probably would say the same of 5150s now.

Another thing to keep in mind is a closed back 4x12 cab with old G12H30s is pretty dark compared to stock new cabs. A 4x12 JBL cab was said to be the other used for VH1 but my point is to balance that boomey flabby bass from the older amps you would usually run the bass on something like 0 to 2, then you could dime the treble and mid and have the presence low to keep the peircing highs contained yet its still pretty trebly. The darker sounding G12H30s in a 4X12 definitely help to get away with these setting. I play a Super Bass and my own JTM clones and I use that same concept. Bass low, treble and mid dimed, dark cab (I also use beam blockers now to help kill the spikey, piercing highs from the speaker. Works wonders.

I hate to be cliche but your guitar and pickup make almost as much a difference. You said you have that all settled. May want to take a close look anyway.
Last edited by Billy Batz on Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Billy Batz » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:19 am

Wow. Brevity is not a virtue of mine. Sorry.

I just wanted to add that you should try and get the brown sound the normal ways before you go trying to plexi-ize your RI. Even with a JTM theirs variables to achieving that sound you wont want to try.

Dime every control on the RI and see where your at. If you havent upgraded your RI a better OT makes a big difference and most people here will tell you upgrading to sozo film caps will make a huge difference and your amp will sound like new and 1000x better. When I had a 1987x a few years back it needed some component swaps to make it more accurate even to metalface specs. An FX loop has to go or be bypassed. I would try doing simple things and experimenting and see where your at before you even go down the more extensive and expensive road. Changing to older specs isnt that hard but it may not get you to where you want to go. Changing an OT (if you havent) is much more effective in improving the root of your tone (that which cant be dialed out) then swapping around splti/shared and filter values. People here will tell you sozos are the same deal.

Im sure some other people can help you as much (in less paragraphs :twisted: ) with their observations.

This topic is tired out here and most places. Doing a search here and at vintageamps.com will help you.
Last edited by Billy Batz on Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Country Boy Shane
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Post by Country Boy Shane » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:46 am

Another VH tone thread... you've gotta be joking.
Just Feel it MAN! -Shane Gorski "Country Boy Shane"

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Post by dosmun » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:25 am

The Real key is to play the tunes correctly. You need to play with the same attack and feel that he uses. Also you need a pickup that has good clarity and not muddy and not a very hot pickup. Also again remember that what your hearing on the album has some studio magic added as well.

You could play through his actual amp and would still need the above factors to get that tone. A lot of his tone comes from the way he plays.

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Post by white room » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:20 pm

Country Boy Shane wrote:Another VH tone thread... you've gotta be joking.

That's one horse that just won't die :lol:

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Post by alaverinth » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:28 pm

Thanks billy..

What I am really looking for is the most tone sensitive component values to get in the ballpark, I can do the rest. I have vintage greenback cabinets and old les pauls but the amp in its previous state(metroamp board is being installed right now.) sounded like crap, my 2203 nails the tone in comparison to the reissue. I also have the before recordings, so when it is done, their will be a before and after shootout.. sozo's will be installed as soon as they arrive.
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I guess I should have just said I wanted good vintage tone rather than saying van halen, but I figured you guys would help since this is an amp help website rather than acting like the guys from the plexi pal.

I would help someone no matter how many times I was asked.
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is gnugear or bmf5150 in the house? I believe that you guys have gone throught this process?

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Post by Billy Batz » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:04 pm

You have to understand something. This horse isnt just beaten. Its been poisened, shot, stabbed, hung, disembowed, drawn and quartered, and raped by every member of the village. I appreciate that new people are turned on to things like this and want to know since its new to them and nothings wrong with that. So I tried to help you with advice rather then spew debated info about his rig once again. But the forum search is a great tool. Theirs probably more about the VH1 tone at Plexi Palace then every post on every topic here put together. A search there will turn up probably everything youd need.

But if you just want a great vintage marshall tone, starting with a PTP board with all the best components is a good start. Before you even mess with one value install that board and think hard about an output transformer upgrade. If you really really want to go the JTM route then no small tweak will help you. Its a balancing act. Shared cathode config on a metalface amp sounds bad. To me the JTM sound is equal parts OT, shared cathode and couplers of the right value, more negative Feedback, less filtering and a few other things as well.

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Post by white room » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:08 pm

alaverinth,



That was not a shot at you or anybody else, Sorry about that.

I was just commenting on the fact that there are countless post on the VH tone subject, on many BBs, and that it is a question that seems to have no definite answer since many people have many oppinions on how to best achieve it.

I think it's still a legitimate question since there is no disputing that EVH's early tone is remarkable...just hard to nail for the rest of us and that's what keeps the mystique alive about it.

No harm or snobbery intended :)
Last edited by white room on Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Country Boy Shane » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:16 pm

The most definite thing is the chops, then you can apply any amp to get your OWN signature tone.
Just Feel it MAN! -Shane Gorski "Country Boy Shane"

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Post by rjgtr » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:27 pm

Ok lets go to the second most beaten horse ... what speakers and tubes were in Clapton's Beano BluesBreaker combo and what brand of treble booster did he use ?????????? What year Les Paul was it and how much did it weight?????

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Playing an instrument doesn't make you a Musician ... Listening does...

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Post by Billy Batz » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:30 pm

rjgtr wrote:Ok lets go to the second most beaten horse ... what speakers and tubes were in Clapton's Beano BluesBreaker combo and what brand of treble booster did he use ?????????? What year Les Paul was it and how much did it weight?????

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Jensens, 6L6s, and an HS booster............... What?......... Its possible!!!!

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Post by alaverinth » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:31 pm

Thanks for your replies guys... I do appriciate it..

I just wanted you to know that I am not a new player, and I do have my own sound.. I have 11 amps 5 cabinets and 10 guitars. I just don't have a really good vintage amp that cries to be played.

Marc

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Country Boy Shane
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Post by Country Boy Shane » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:43 pm

Buy one now!
Just Feel it MAN! -Shane Gorski "Country Boy Shane"

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Post by rjgtr » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:52 pm

Or build one yourself... A nice PTP amp is really in another world of tone.
Richard Johnson

Playing an instrument doesn't make you a Musician ... Listening does...

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