The Best Thing To Learn In Order To Play Like Ed

[rgalpin]

Looking at these two licks some more in terms of starting with an UP or a DOWN... at your prompting I have spent some time playing them both ways. Cool. Then, going back to the recording I came to the following conclusion... fwiw. imo. ymmv.

This first one starts on a 1/16th note upbeat pickup note - as in, the second note of the lick is on the downbeat - so I am thinking that this one starts with an UP:

Hear About It Later (3:01)

-------------------------------P----P-------------------B1-----
E--------------12----------------------------------------------
B---12--------------12--------------------------12------------
G--------15--------------15---14---12---14---------12------
D---------------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------------
-----U----D----U----D----U---------------D----U-----D------
---------------------------|-----IGH-----|SOTOTW intro|-


The second lick starts on a downbeat so it feels best to start it on a DOWN.

Hear About It Later (3:07)

------------------------------------P----P--------B2>R>B2---
E---12---------------------------------------------------------
B---------12---15--------12----------------------------------
G--------------------14--------15---14---12---14-----------
D---------------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U----D----U----D----U---------------D------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

I realize that the thread is mostly about learning the Clapton stuff to get at the EVH DNA - so please excuse my slight left turn here - but wanted to put my observation out there on the DOWN UP thing regarding these 2 licks. Thanks!

[wjamflan]

just keep it coming brother - i'm with ya - no need to dumb it down - bring it.

Ok. If you really want more, here are some other things to keep in mind when playing these things:

1. Learn the Cream solos note-for-note by slowing them down so you can really understand how EC phrases against the beat. This is the single best thing you can do to learn to play like Ed b/c Clapton's feel for rhythm is what Ed liked about him more than anything else.

2. While you are doing that, pay attention to your right hand. To play like both Clapton and Ed, the most important thing to do is to rest the butt of your hand on the bridge so you can pick from the wrist and mute out unwanted notes while getting a slightly muffled tone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hYCKeOsj_w#t=267

3. Ed held the pick between his middle finger and thumb. This is essential to getting certain mutes correct - high E on ATBL riff, for example.

4. More importantly, pay attention to the angle of your pick. This is harder to explain but I'll do my best.

a. For EC and any EVH that is NOT alternate picking, hold the pick parallel to the strings so you could place it between them (the B and high E for example) without touching either. Ed leaned his slightly to the ground but it was still relatively parallel. This is good for strumming chords, stabbing single notes, and getting a fuller tone.


b. For EVH's alternate picked runs like the example from the Steven Rosen interview, place your pick between two strings and rotate it clockwise (for rightys) until it can touch the two strings it's between. Then lean it towards the ground slightly. The pick should now line up with the angle of your picking arm instead of the strings. This gives you the thinner, slicing sound you hear in the Rosen alternate picking clip, and allows you to play much faster.


5. Use Fender Medium picks. They give you the best balance of tone and attack for EVH. Clapton liked Fender Heavys in Cream, but he wasn't alternate picking like Ed.

6. Use Fender 150 XL strings with the .015 G string. They are much easier to play on a Strat-style guitar with a standard tremolo.

7. Pick lightly and relaxed. Alot of folks think Ed and Clapton picked extremely hard. They are both the opposite. They both had a very light touch but still produced different sounds and dynamics by altering the amount of wrist and pressure they employed. Take it from someone who broke many a string trying to reproduce Have You Heard back in the day. Let the amp and your wrists do the work. Watch the many video examples of them playing to see what I'm referring to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hYCKeOsj_w#t=267

8. Bend strings with a twist of the forearm of your fret hand like turning a door knob (counter clockwise for right hand players). The butt of your fret hand should go from facing the back of the neck of the guitar to facing skyward. This will help you be consistent and add vibrato. Also, make sure to hook your thumb around the neck in line with your middle finger for proper leverage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwXsGQl ... 7BAD#t=342

9. Use the bending technique from above to practice microtonal bends (1/4 step) while picking a simple pentatonic run such as this:

Microtonal Bend Practice

---------Bend each note .25-------------------------------------------~~~~~~~---
E---|---------------------------------|-----------------------------|----------------
B---|---------------------------------|-----------------------------|----------------
G---|----------5------7------5------|-----------------------------|----------------
D---|---7----------------------------|---7------5-------------5---|---7------------
A---|---------------------------------|-----------------7----------|----------------
E---|---------------------------------|-----------------------------|----------------
Beat:---1------2------3------4----------1------2------3------4-------1------------
Pick:---D------D------D------D---------D------D------D------D-------D------------


Ed and Eric bent everything all of the time, even chords. Check the videos.

10. Use the Clapton stab to accent each note of the microtonal bend lick to practice combining them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hYCKeOsj_w#t=284

11. Practice the following lick 1,000,000 times applying the above bending technique to all bends and vibrato:

-------B1~~~~~~~~~---------B.25------B1----B.25-----B.5~~~~~~~~------
E-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G---7---(9)-------------7------5------7---(9)---7------5---(6)--------------
D-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----D-------------------D------D------D---------D------D--------------------


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hYCKeOsj_w#t=176

Eric used his middle finger for the first bend. Practice it with both your middle and ring so you can add vibrato and bend in pitch with either.

EDIT - A good way to think of executing vibrato from the forearm is to use the "so-so gesture" motion I referenced below (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhSfx8n_zk) with your fretting hand. Just like with Ed's tremolo picking, it's a fast, relatively short, repeated motion that should be easy to execute and sustain. Clapton did it this way in the interview video above, and Ed almost always did it this way. But Clapton also did a really wide, stinging vibrato that only had one finger as a contact point. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u82zzgSgeg0#t=30 I've never seen Ed do it that way, but it is damn cool and hard to do right.

12. Practice adding microtonal bends and vibrato to chords and riffs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkG72R-6EKA#t=69


That should give any Ed wannabe off to a good start to getting his touch and feel under their fingertips. Hope it helps.

[wjamflan]

This first one starts on a 1/16th note upbeat pickup note - as in, the second note of the lick is on the downbeat - so I am thinking that this one starts with an UP:

Hear About It Later (3:01)

-------------------------------P----P-------------------B1-----
E--------------12----------------------------------------------
B---12--------------12--------------------------12------------
G--------15--------------15---14---12---14---------12------
D---------------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------------
-----U----D----U----D----U---------------D----U-----D------
---------------------------|-----IGH-----|SOTOTW intro|-

I don't think it matters for this one. As you said, the lick comes in on the "e" of 1 e & a. I believe the Cherry Lane folks even have the first note tabbed as a pulloff to that 12, so a downstroke on the second note makes a lot of sense.

I guess the biggest point I can make about picking directions is that Clapton almost always picked downbeats as downstrokes. He ALWAYS picked accented notes as downstrokes, including almost all full step bends. Ed picked up on this and does the same. The first HAIL lick picks up on an unaccented offbeat as you said, so play that however you'd like.

[garbeaj]

Seriously, Bill has really got everything here for those that really want to learn how to play Ed's music properly. Some of these things I discovered on my own, but many of these accurate observations were things that I learned from Bill in posts and conversations on and off this forum over the years and I have to say that he has made a GIANT difference in my understanding of Ed's music and he has made a dramatic impact in my playing in general through our discussions.

For whatever my opinion is worth as a student of guitar and very specifically of Eddie over the last 34 years, I can say that the things that wjamflan has pointed out are absolutely true, on point and critical to understanding how to play Ed's music. Applying the lessons I learned from the live Cream recordings (which I studied from the moment that I read Ed's specific mention of his own note-for-note study of live Cream in his first interview which was almost the same moment I began playing guitar at age 8 in 1981) and with Bill's detailed help and discussions I have magnified my understanding of Ed's playing beyond measure.

I want to thank Bill for taking the time and effort to post these observations in this thread. He has posted many of these elsewhere on this forum, but it is really great to have so many of these specific examples of the critical relationship between Clapton's live Cream playing and the majority of Ed's playing posted in one place. These are the tools to really understanding Ed's fastest and most difficult to play passages.

[wjamflan]

I want to thank Bill for taking the time and effort to post these observations in this thread. He has posted many of these elsewhere on this forum, but it is really great to have so many of these specific examples of the critical relationship between Clapton's live Cream playing and the majority of Ed's playing posted in one place.

You're welcome Allen. While I'm post happy, here are a couple of other non-Clapton, helpful, Ed picking tips:

There are two important times when Ed doesn't pick from his wrist with his hand resting on the bridge.

1. When playing boogie-like riffs (like I'm The One), Ed often kept a stiffer wrist and a picked from the elbow. His contact point on the guitar was the middle of his right forearm instead of the butt of his hand. He still lightly muted with his right hand, but it was while his lower arm moved back and forth from the elbow with his wrist staying in line with his arm. The angle of the pick is parallel to the strings.

The motion was sometimes small like I'm The One. For examples of Ed doing this, see the following:

ITO 1998: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnrJxV3QZFE

ITO 2007: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2xVuhib0ag

ITO 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAmnqEL21DI#t=746

The motion could also be bigger and more pronounced like in Hang Em High. See:

HEH 1982: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMGo__wWm4#t=2428

2. When tremolo picking, Ed took his right hand completely off the bridge; cocked his wrist slightly downward so that it wasn't in perfect alignment with his forearm; held the pick on a slight angle (in between his parallel and alternate picking) while making contact with the middle of his right forearm; and shook his hand/wrist from the forearm in a repeated, fast, small/short, "so-so" gesture-like way.

So-So gesture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhSfx8n_zk

Watch these in half and full speed on youtube:

EVH - LWAN (back view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOFIttS69I#t=268 - note the cocked wrist and distance from the bridge

EVH - US Fest (lower view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3vt-48Zzk#t=5724 - note how small/tight and fast the so-so twist is

EVH - Sao Paulo (back view #2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2qvfH0yJMQ#t=5258 - note how the contact point never changes

EVH - Toronto '95 (front view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ5SEjF-z9M#t=3639 - note the downward wrist cock and slight angling of the pick

If you have trouble with this, try letting your pinky hang loose like Ed b/c it might help you with the so-so gesture. This should a movement that is easy to do, so RELAX everything. You should be able to keep this going forever. Once you get the feeling right, tremolo picking will be the easiest technique for you to execute.

Good luck!

[rdodson]

Yeah, the tremolo picking is a simple radius/ulna rotation in alignment with the latter. It is the transposition of the left hand vibrato motion. When it becomes comfortable, you can really rip with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3AP9KJ6OHA

NB: a pointed pick a la JazzIII doesn't help here...the rounded tip of a Fender 351 helps immensely.

[Rich_D]

that little flick of the wrist on the high note coming from the "outside" is how I seem to begin every phrase

For your curiosity, I have always done it exactly the same way. I flick the high E from the outside because my thinking from when I was 15 was, the next note is 1 string down so I should pick in the direction of the next string to go faster. Yours sounds much smoother than mine, but I've also come to my own conclusion that I can never make these box licks sound "right," like VH's or Clapton's flavor, coming from that direction. In as much as there is no right or wrong, I still felt like for me to get closer to what I want it to sound like I had to start doing it the way it's notated here. Essentially I've had to do that Costanza thing where I literally have to try the opposite of every single f*cking pick stroke that I would do naturaly.

[rgalpin]

that little flick of the wrist on the high note coming from the "outside" is how I seem to begin every phrase

For your curiosity, I have always done it exactly the same way. I flick the high E from the outside because my thinking from when I was 15 was, the next note is 1 string down so I should pick in the direction of the next string to go faster.

cool! that makes total sense. never thought of it that way - you might as well be headed toward the string you are going to pick next and save some extra motion - and give your self some time and space to fill with feel.

i spent a good bit of time (at least a good 30 minutes or so - LOOK A SQUIRREL!! ) this weekend forcing myself to play some familiar patterns with a reversed picking pattern and it is interesting.

RE:
the pattern wjamflan asked about in Outta Love:

Rob - just out of curiosity.... how do you pick the following from the beginning of the 2nd Outta Love solo?

OUTTA LOVE AGAIN - 2nd Solo

---------B-1.5-and hold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>R-----B-1.5------B-1.5--------------P---SL---H/SL----
E---|---19---19--19---19--19---19--19---19--19---|---19---19---19-----------------------------------|
B---|---------------------------------------------------|------------------------17---20---17\6------------|
G---|---------------------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------7/13---|
D---|---------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------|
A---|---------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------|
E---|---------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------|
---------D----D---U-----D---U----D---U-----D---U--------D----U----D--------D----U----------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


---------------------B1---------------------H----P--------------------B1---------------------H----P---------------
E---|---12------------------12------------------------------------------------12-------------------------|--------
B---|---------12---15------------12---12---15---12----------12---15------------12---12---15---12--|--------
G---|-----------------------------------------------------14----------------------------------------------|--14----
D---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
A---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
E---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
----------D----U----D-------U----D-----U----------------U-----D----U-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
-----------------------------------|-----SOTOTW-2------|-------------------------|------SOTOTW-2------|----


My question is, to start the third bar, if you play the E at the 12th fret with an upstroke, and the B at the 12th fret with a downstroke, how do you pick the 15th fret (B string) bend that immediately follows? It's pretty quick, and I'm assuming you accent that bent note. Do you not use a downstroke there?

picking the 15th fret bend that immediately follows the 12th fret (downstroke) is pretty easy - straight forward. it's just an upstroke instead of a downstroke - no difference in speed or ability to accent. just coming at it from a different direction.

Also... how do you handle the SOTOTW Lick 2 variations that follow with the added note to start on the high E? I think you'd probably just reverse what I have, but I am curious.

Seems to work either way... my natural tendency is to start with an upstroke but it's a little messier coming off the B string bend.

---------------------B1---------------------H----P-------------------(no bend here)---------H----P---------------
E---|---12------------------12------------------------------------------------12-------------------------|--------
B---|---------12---15------------12---12---15---12----------12---15------------12---12---15---12--|--------
G---|-----------------------------------------------------14----------------------------------------------|--14----
D---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
A---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
E---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
----------U----D----U-------U----D-----U----------------D-----U----D-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
----------U----D----U-------D----U-----D----------------D-----U----D-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
-----------------------------------|-----SOTOTW-2------|-------------------------|------SOTOTW-2------|----

On a separate issue: See where I have noted that there is no bend on the B string at the 15 - I clearly hear a D note there - it's not bent up to an E.

[wjamflan]

Rob - just out of curiosity.... how do you pick the following from the beginning of the 2nd Outta Love solo?

picking the 15th fret bend that immediately follows the 12th fret (downstroke) is pretty easy - straight forward. it's just an upstroke instead of a downstroke - no difference in speed or ability to accent. just coming at it from a different direction.

Ok. That's what I thought you'd say. I believe EC would definitely hit it with a downstroke; EVH, most likely. But whatever works

---------------------B1---------------------H----P-------------------(no bend here)---------H----P---------------
E---|---12------------------12------------------------------------------------12-------------------------|--------
B---|---------12---15------------12---12---15---12----------12---15------------12---12---15---12--|--------
G---|-----------------------------------------------------14----------------------------------------------|--14----
D---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
A---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
E---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
----------U----D----U-------U----D-----U----------------D-----U----D-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
----------U----D----U-------D----U-----D----------------D-----U----D-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
-----------------------------------|-----SOTOTW-2------|-------------------------|------SOTOTW-2------|----

On a separate issue: See where I have noted that there is no bend on the B string at the 15 - I clearly hear a D note there - it's not bent up to an E.

Listen to this: http://www.mediafire.com/?wd2s33tx86ibexx

Do you still not hear the bend? I believe there's actually a bend and a quick reverse that I didn't include for some reason. But I definitely hear a bend with these old ears....

[rgalpin]

Ok. That's what I thought you'd say. I believe EC would definitely hit it with a downstroke; EVH, most likely. But whatever works

---------------------B1---------------------H----P-------------------(no bend here)---------H----P---------------
E---|---12------------------12------------------------------------------------12-------------------------|--------
B---|---------12---15------------12---12---15---12----------12---15------------12---12---15---12--|--------
G---|-----------------------------------------------------14----------------------------------------------|--14----
D---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
A---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
E---|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------
----------U----D----U-------U----D-----U----------------D-----U----D-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
----------U----D----U-------D----U-----D----------------D-----U----D-------U-----D----U------------------U-----
-----------------------------------|-----SOTOTW-2------|-------------------------|------SOTOTW-2------|----

On a separate issue: See where I have noted that there is no bend on the B string at the 15 - I clearly hear a D note there - it's not bent up to an E.

Listen to this: http://www.mediafire.com/?wd2s33tx86ibexx

Do you still not hear the bend? I believe there's actually a bend and a quick reverse that I didn't include for some reason. But I definitely hear a bend with these old ears....

yeah - i hear bend and quick reverse = vibrato. that note has got mojo all over it that's for sure - in the end it sounds like a D to me and it helps the phrase to work better that way. as a D it works as a good response to the E that was just bent a few notes before - bending it up to an E again would mess up some of the movement of the phrasing - like if you keep "going home" by hitting the tonic you miss the movement that the 7th gives it right there. maybe there's a TAB NOTATION for MOJO. just put an M right there. haha!

[JoeyParm]

Great forum, guys. Any other tips for developing the tremolo picking shown in the vids above? Found a couple of demos on YouTube but not much in the way of explanation. Thanks to all who've already posted some thoughts on it.

[wjamflan]

Great forum, guys. Any other tips for developing the tremolo picking shown in the vids above? Found a couple of demos on YouTube but not much in the way of explanation. Thanks to all who've already posted some thoughts on it.

I don't think I could be any clearer than this:

When tremolo picking, Ed took his right hand completely off the bridge; cocked his wrist slightly downward so that it wasn't in perfect alignment with his forearm; held the pick on a slight angle (in between his parallel and alternate picking) while making contact with the middle of his right forearm; and shook his hand/wrist from the forearm in a repeated, fast, small/short, "so-so" gesture-like way.

So-So gesture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhSfx8n_zk

Watch these in half and full speed on youtube:

EVH - LWAN (back view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOFIttS69I#t=268 - note the cocked wrist and distance from the bridge

EVH - US Fest (lower view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3vt-48Zzk#t=5724 - note how small/tight and fast the so-so twist is

EVH - Sao Paulo (back view #2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2qvfH0yJMQ#t=5258 - note how the contact point never changes

EVH - Toronto '95 (front view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ5SEjF-z9M#t=3639 - note the downward wrist cock and slight angling of the pick

If you have trouble with this, try letting your pinky hang loose like Ed b/c it might help you with the so-so gesture. This should a movement that is easy to do, so RELAX everything. You should be able to keep this going forever. Once you get the feeling right, tremolo picking will be the easiest technique for you to execute.

If that's not helping, hopefully someone else who has it down will chime in.

[JoeyParm]

Great forum, guys. Any other tips for developing the tremolo picking shown in the vids above? Found a couple of demos on YouTube but not much in the way of explanation. Thanks to all who've already posted some thoughts on it.

I don't think I could be any clearer than this:

When tremolo picking, Ed took his right hand completely off the bridge; cocked his wrist slightly downward so that it wasn't in perfect alignment with his forearm; held the pick on a slight angle (in between his parallel and alternate picking) while making contact with the middle of his right forearm; and shook his hand/wrist from the forearm in a repeated, fast, small/short, "so-so" gesture-like way.

So-So gesture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhSfx8n_zk

Watch these in half and full speed on youtube:

EVH - LWAN (back view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOFIttS69I#t=268 - note the cocked wrist and distance from the bridge

EVH - US Fest (lower view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3vt-48Zzk#t=5724 - note how small/tight and fast the so-so twist is

EVH - Sao Paulo (back view #2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2qvfH0yJMQ#t=5258 - note how the contact point never changes

EVH - Toronto '95 (front view): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ5SEjF-z9M#t=3639 - note the downward wrist cock and slight angling of the pick

If you have trouble with this, try letting your pinky hang loose like Ed b/c it might help you with the so-so gesture. This should a movement that is easy to do, so RELAX everything. You should be able to keep this going forever. Once you get the feeling right, tremolo picking will be the easiest technique for you to execute.

If that's not helping, hopefully someone else who has it down will chime in.

Yea, your post rocked - thanks for that. Definitely see what is supposed to be happening, but for whatever reason it's just not coming together for me. Feel like the way I naturally hold the pick isn't conducive to this motion because of the way the pick is cutting across the string.

[Tone Slinger]

Like mentioned by wjamflan previously,a medium guaged Fender pick(celluloid, regular shaped) was a important part. The pick itself produces a unique sound, and the way Ed picked the strings, allowed more the tensil quality of the pick to come through WAY more than most other players, contributing to that 'clacky' type sound/attack he got. Obviously, like wjamflan has said, the picks angle and Ed's 'freely rotating' wrist played even more heavily into it as well. Try and find that 'tone' in the pick itself (I know I'm trying).

If you have been playing a long time (the 'old dog/new trick' thingy),it may be detrimental to your style/quality of playing to try and cop Ed's fan picking EXACTLY. Just by trying to get at a real 'even and balanced' tremolo picking technique (Ed 'sounding') you will find that you will lift your picking hand off of the guitar. Doing it EXACTLY as Ed did may not be an option. A compromise of sorts is always part of the equation.

[garbeaj]

I found out how Ed held the pick with the thumb and middle finger and the index resting on top of the pick when I first started playing. I've held my pick this way ever since.

I have no advice for tremolo picking in general...it was one of the first things I ever did on guitar and it always came naturally to me. I would have to really work to cop the shape of Ed's hand when he does tremolo picking which Bill described very accurately. But since I've always been able to achieve the same speed and accuracy without really trying, I can't bring myself to copy Ed's "So-So" or "fan" motion...But I will say that it LOOKS cool as hell!