Ed's 1978 touring rig.

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:39 pm

Yep that's right how your looking at it...I was just pointing out that 3 oclock 3 are so differant that people have to be more clear when they relate it. Point being the power amp is set for the cleanest tone possible which usually means a low volume. Yep amp 1 the loaded amp is set for max . everything and is the tone amp.

Good clarification and correct.

Ralle · Post by **Ralle** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:34 pm

Good Guest wrote:
Ralle wrote: Here's what I'm thinking; I'm guessing that Ed had a plexi ( any plexi, since he owned a bunch ) as amp 1, and had another plexi ( the wooden amp ) for slaving on the first album ( I'm not going to mention the effects and loops now ). The reason for these thoughts is; If I feed a superlead ( amp 2 ) into the bright channel it's very logical to adjust the eq like Robin says, otherwise it gets nuts... not becaus it's the bright channel, but because the bright channel has a brightcap across the volume... So I can't get it to work like I want it to... But if I feed a plexi the same way it'll probably work much better cause that volume has no bright cap ( depending on how old the plexi is ofcours )... and work with the eq ( Robin said that the plexi's had to adjust the eq different from the superleads )... I can really appritiate it working like a charm like this... And prior to the seccond album Ed had the wodden amp modded into a power amp ( much cleaner, no eq being needed exept for presence )...
Me, I'm feeding a superlead's normal channel with my plexi, and it gets me VERY close... no brightcap... I say close; the normal channel has no mixercap either, so... But I can't get it to work if I feed the superlead into the brightchannel ( remember I have no effects or eqboxes )
Does any of this sound logical?

Oh btw, I guess I'll be posting some new clips soon

Well that’s your problem…you don’t have a way to control your loaded signal. When using your superlead as the loaded amp you MUST have your bass turned up..the middle , treble and presence turned down too “0” and your volume at 3 not 3 o’clock but set for a clean sound.

So how do you get the volume? With your line out box ….the lineout box Ed used had a volume control as well as outputs for other amps. That is what controlled the volume not the second amp.

If you just load your amp and run it too a superlead and figure you can use it to amplify your plexi ..forget it. You will have tooooo much high end..the tone will be mangled..and the noise might be unbeareable as well as the feedback.

So your line out must also have a way too decouple the power soaked signal..and that is why they use a transformer…it provides the isolation necessary and a way to get rid of the noise and provide you with a nice shimmering powerfull wide bandwidth mud free signal you cannot get with reactive loads eq's.

Remember all those reactive loads are designed to filter and roll off your signal like a speaker does or a cab..basically mangling everything under 5khz and chucking everything over 5khz to ground..so they wreck the signal before it hits the slave amp…..Eddy , Jose etc figured out a way around that ridiculous waste of tone.

You better put your name on the “rackman list” and get your “cork sniffer special” that everyone is getting.

I took it for granted that it was clear regarding the loadbox... Yes, I have a loadbox with a lineout volume pot. I use the superlead as the seccond amp... not the loaded amp... Like this:
Amp 1: plexi - into a load with a line out pot ( to controll the volume into...
Amp 2: a superlead...
What did you say your name was, again?
Ralle

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:32 pm

Ralle wrote:
Good Guest wrote:
Ralle wrote: Here's what I'm thinking; I'm guessing that Ed had a plexi ( any plexi, since he owned a bunch ) as amp 1, and had another plexi ( the wooden amp ) for slaving on the first album ( I'm not going to mention the effects and loops now ). The reason for these thoughts is; If I feed a superlead ( amp 2 ) into the bright channel it's very logical to adjust the eq like Robin says, otherwise it gets nuts... not becaus it's the bright channel, but because the bright channel has a brightcap across the volume... So I can't get it to work like I want it to... But if I feed a plexi the same way it'll probably work much better cause that volume has no bright cap ( depending on how old the plexi is ofcours )... and work with the eq ( Robin said that the plexi's had to adjust the eq different from the superleads )... I can really appritiate it working like a charm like this... And prior to the seccond album Ed had the wodden amp modded into a power amp ( much cleaner, no eq being needed exept for presence )...
Me, I'm feeding a superlead's normal channel with my plexi, and it gets me VERY close... no brightcap... I say close; the normal channel has no mixercap either, so... But I can't get it to work if I feed the superlead into the brightchannel ( remember I have no effects or eqboxes )
Does any of this sound logical?

Oh btw, I guess I'll be posting some new clips soon

Well that’s your problem…you don’t have a way to control your loaded signal. When using your superlead as the loaded amp you MUST have your bass turned up..the middle , treble and presence turned down too “0” and your volume at 3 not 3 o’clock but set for a clean sound.

So how do you get the volume? With your line out box ….the lineout box Ed used had a volume control as well as outputs for other amps. That is what controlled the volume not the second amp.

If you just load your amp and run it too a superlead and figure you can use it to amplify your plexi ..forget it. You will have tooooo much high end..the tone will be mangled..and the noise might be unbeareable as well as the feedback.

So your line out must also have a way too decouple the power soaked signal..and that is why they use a transformer…it provides the isolation necessary and a way to get rid of the noise and provide you with a nice shimmering powerfull wide bandwidth mud free signal you cannot get with reactive loads eq's.

Remember all those reactive loads are designed to filter and roll off your signal like a speaker does or a cab..basically mangling everything under 5khz and chucking everything over 5khz to ground..so they wreck the signal before it hits the slave amp…..Eddy , Jose etc figured out a way around that ridiculous waste of tone.

You better put your name on the “rackman list” and get your “cork sniffer special” that everyone is getting.

I took it for granted that it was clear regarding the loadbox... Yes, I have a loadbox with a lineout volume pot. I use the superlead as the seccond amp... not the loaded amp... Like this:
Amp 1: plexi - into a load with a line out pot ( to controll the volume into...
Amp 2: a superlead...
What did you say your name was, again?
Ralle

Yes I got that you had a load with lineout but not a way to control the volume..I thought you were using the slave amp as a volume.Some commercial load boxs have a lineout but they are too hot for what Robin said Eddie used. You don't have a transformer in your line out?

What did you say your name was, again? You can call me Rolly

Ralle · Post by **Ralle** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:45 pm

" Yes I got that you had a load with lineout but not a way to control the volume..I thought you were using the slave amp as a volume.Some commercial load boxs have a lineout but they are too hot for what Robin said Eddie used. You don't have a transformer in your line out?

What did you say your name was, again? You can call me Rolly "

Hey Rolly

No transformer... I have an effect resistor with a line tap pot ( 0,2 - 0,5 ohm ) at the bottom to adjust the volume into the seccond amp... very basic. I've tested the one Mark A have in his putfile, and it worked fine, but not as good as this one. I feed the lead channel of the superlead ( having the volbrightcap removed ), and it works much better, more controllable than with the brightcap in.
I allways thought that Ed had something simular for a loadbox... Looking at the pics from Mark C's loadbox ( wich has two or three line outputs ) stating that Ed used something like that, I'd never guess that a transformer were in Ed's load box lineout...
Ralle

rgorke · Post by **rgorke** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:04 am

Ralle wrote:
Hey Rolly
No transformer... I have an effect resistor with a line tap pot ( 0,2 - 0,5 ohm ) at the bottom to adjust the volume into the seccond amp... very basic. I've tested the one Mark A have in his putfile, and it worked fine, but not as good as this one. I feed the lead channel of the superlead ( having the volbrightcap removed ), and it works much better, more controllable than with the brightcap in.
I allways thought that Ed had something simular for a loadbox... Looking at the pics from Mark C's loadbox ( wich has two or three line outputs ) stating that Ed used something like that, I'd never guess that a transformer were in Ed's load box lineout...
Ralle

Ralle,

Do you have a schematic or a diagram of the line out you are using? I am not sure of the differences between yours and Mark A's.

Thanks and get on those clips buddy.

Roger

Ralle · Post by **Ralle** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:04 am

I don't know how to upload the shem in a post, so if you give me your email, I can send it to you... maybe you can upload it here?
Ralle

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:09 pm

Ralle wrote:" Yes I got that you had a load with lineout but not a way to control the volume..I thought you were using the slave amp as a volume.Some commercial load boxs have a lineout but they are too hot for what Robin said Eddie used. You don't have a transformer in your line out?

What did you say your name was, again? You can call me Rolly "

Hey Rolly
No transformer... I have an effect resistor with a line tap pot ( 0,2 - 0,5 ohm ) at the bottom to adjust the volume into the seccond amp... very basic. I've tested the one Mark A have in his putfile, and it worked fine, but not as good as this one. I feed the lead channel of the superlead ( having the volbrightcap removed ), and it works much better, more controllable than with the brightcap in.
I allways thought that Ed had something simular for a loadbox... Looking at the pics from Mark C's loadbox ( wich has two or three line outputs ) stating that Ed used something like that, I'd never guess that a transformer were in Ed's load box lineout...
Ralle

Hey Ralle

It sounds like the load box you use doesn't need a transformer as you are tapping your signal at a lower resistance . They only seem to use the transformer to lower the voltage from a high resistance.

Robin said Jose made lots of loads for Eddie but Eddie kept going back to the first one. It could be the first one was a simple one like you describe. Just something that would allow him to use his plexi like the bandmaster when he used the extension spkr jack..but safely.

Rolly

Ralle · Post by **Ralle** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:23 pm

Hmm... Ok... I'm no expert in the bandmaster - extention speaker jack - thing... If he used it like you suggest; what need would he have for the line out volume for the seccond amp? ( might sound stupid, but as I said, I dont know that much about using an extention speaker jack )

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:17 pm

Ralle wrote:Hmm... Ok... I'm no expert in the bandmaster - extention speaker jack - thing... If he used it like you suggest; what need would he have for the line out volume for the seccond amp? ( might sound stupid, but as I said, I dont know that much about using an extention speaker jack )

Ok lets make you an expert.....Eddie said the best tone he got was from his bandmaster using the extrernal jack...the problem was you get a very low signal and you burn up your output transformer after a while. The reason being is there is no load to dissipate power properly for the transformer as he shorts the signal to ground, but runs it to a cab....you can probably figure out that this a big problem if you want to play loud. Now when he shorts that signal to ground it is at .5 to 1 ohm. That's why the OT blows after a while becuase it wants to put out 4 to 8X more than it is designed to do.

So now you have a plexi ..what do you do? You go to Jose and say this is the tone I like from my bandmaster, how can I get it from a plexi without destrying it. Jose says simple..you connect your plexi to a load resistor so your output transformer doesn't blow up and then you tap the signal from your power resistor at the .5 to 1 ohm mark..which would be the same level as your bandmaster...then you run it thru a voltage divider to feed your other amp and you use the volume control on your line out to control the volume. Problem solved.

But now you have another problem..you have this huge ceramic resistor hanging out the back end of your amp that has to be dangling in the air to dissipate heat or it will burn up and that everyone can see..and trip over..what to do? Simple says Jose...you use these resistors with heatsinks on them and place them in a box that can hide them and dissipate heat , and place fans in them...but because they can't be tapped at the low ohmage like the ceramic ones we have to install a transformer to lower the voltage and isolate the signal before we run it thru the lineout volume and other amps. Viola

Eddie ends up with his cranked tone and can adjust it to any volume. But he doesn't like the new tone so he goes back to the ceramic one. Which seems to be what you are doing.

You see he couldn't just place resistors in paralell to get the low ohms cause that would lead to the same problem of blowing up OT's...the transformer solution was the best for that setup. But remember Robin says Eddie still blew OT's but I think that was more from high bias currents causeing the OT's stress than the load box. Well I hope this helps..now I will let you go back to making clips.

jcm800nut · Post by **jcm800nut** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:35 pm

That was an awesome explanation, how is ralle tapping his load that is different though? I don't understand that so clearly. How could I put together something to goof around with that would be the same as what ralle uses?

And yes, ralle, make more clips man! Make a whole song for that matter, your tone and playing are really fun to listen to.

If you have a schematic, my email is jcm800nut@gmail.com - I'd love to see it.

rgorke · Post by **rgorke** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:41 pm

Ralle wrote:I don't know how to upload the shem in a post, so if you give me your email, I can send it to you... maybe you can upload it here?
Ralle

Ralle,

I sent you a PM with my email.

Roger

Ralle · Post by **Ralle** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:29 pm

I just emailed the shem to Roger... I hope he can post it here, cause I don't how to

I've been using this loadbox for a couple of years off and on... It works fine, but it's the amps that is my consern; what amps and what speqs... All details about how everything were hooked up seem to be solved, that was clear to me since a while back ( I've had clips of slaving amps on soundclip for quite some time now ). But the ampspeqs hasn't been right...
Thanx for all the help on this matter... It can't be easy to allways understand what everybody means at alltimes... you know, background, history and so on 'n so forth, so... thanx guys
More to come

jcm800nut · Post by **jcm800nut** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:34 pm

Ralle, are you using something like this, http://www.ohmite.com/catalog/pdf/280_series.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , setting the adjustable tap between .2-.5 ohms, then putting a pot on it to control the output and using that as the line out? How exactly could one wire that up?

Ralle · Post by **Ralle** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:42 pm

I'll try to explain:
Imagin a speaker jack; one signal lug and one ground lug... A load has be connected across the signal and ground lugs... a load that looks like this: On the signal lug, connect the big resistor ( 8 ohm, if that's what you're running it at, 100 - 200 w )... At the other end of that resistor, towards the ground lug, connect ( in serie ) a low ohm resistor; 0,1 - 0,5 ohm to the groundlug ( this one dosn't have to be an effect rsistor ). Across ( parallel ) the small resistor connect a pot ( linepot ), the value of that pot doesn't matter that much since it in parallel over the small resistor... lets' say 4 - 5 kohm. From that pot to an output jack, wich feeds what ever you want to feed... in this situation another amps input... set the volume on that seccond amp at what ever level Robin L states ( at 9 aclock ) for a clean sound, and use the lineout pot for bareable volume levels ( what ever that might be... or where you are )
Let me know if I'm not clear enough

I'll post some clips as soon as I get my own sound ( with this rig ) in order...
Ralle

Mats A · Post by **Mats A** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:57 pm

What did Seymour Duncan do to Eddies PU on Frankie more specific? Give it more turns of wire? How much output did it have?

And was it the GE-10 Boss EQ that he changed his MXR 6-band EQ for? Or was it the Boss 6 or later 7-band EQ?

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