The Best Thing To Learn In Order To Play Like Ed

[plexified]

G , I think we need to get a case of wild turkey and a case of Marlboros and a few days later we can have this thing nailed . I know I can play this stuff upside down and just need to get your perspective . That's the hard part for me now . Your perspective . Once I got it I got your back and we can nail this thing . Its a fun brain teaser though . I hope to make you all laugh a bit lately . I got so tore up with the bike wreck, all my friends became comedians and it was glorious . Each buddy wanting your guts to hurt for fun . What a new game I was unaware of . Lets laugh !!

[garbeaj]

All I'm saying is that if you put forth the effort to really learn the live Cream stuff you will gain a much greater understanding of Ed's playing. And drugs and alcohol have absolute zero to do with it.

[JiMB]

I understand what you're saying, garbeaj.
Plexified, that's sone brilliant stream of consciousness you've been writing! Just having fun with ya! More laughter!

[plexified]

The cool thing is that your passion for the Cream influence is a huge thing . I hope I did not distract from it too much being a goof ball . The times Eric was in this band was a huge experiment . A lot of experimentation . He had a thing that needs to be pointed out ahead of time . He had the dexterity to play whatever he wanted . And this is huge . Imagine going to the theatre with your buddy Pete Townsend . Both of these guys were experimenting with their whole lives including their sexuality so I wonder if they ever hooked up. But if they did , it was because of this ..... Pete calls Eric , have you heard this Cat ? no , He played Sgt Pepper and other new songs on his first time out . With two chaps and some new Marshalls . They were loud and had their shtick together . Wanna grab a flic and talk? Yeah , sure . So I saw this cat and he is gonna put us all out of business mate . Hendrix put these chaps into a heroin induced state . Do not be fooled . I know this is a clean discussion , but , I was clean when the world of singularity hit me . Like a sledge hammer . It tunes you in like a radio station . Clapton had that . Townsend was just a goof ball . Eddie channeled the vibe that resonates your soul . It does not kick ass and take names it is a gift you are so fortunate to have experienced . It could inspire the rest of your life . When Ed found Holdsworth , it was a dividing line when he left the blues and found the fuse . The fusion world . He still had some sould but never the same thing . SRV is really what would be a good replacement here or just buy the first John Mayall with the Blues Breakers , Raw Eric tone and playing , very simple yet its roots . Then go backwards , find the three kings . BB , Albert and Freddie . Now we are killing it .

[garbeaj]

Well really it is more than that Eddie copped a "vibe" from Clapton...it is that he plays specific licks exactly the same way as Clapton. These self-same licks form the vast majority of Eddie's style.

Trust me plexfied, just learn the tunes we've mentioned note-for-note and you will know exactly what Bill and I are talking about.

[plexified]

Ok , I know what your saying for sure , I listened to the clip and I can play that in the dark . why ? Because I can feel it and I stepped outside the box . I am saying that you have to map the fretboard with the notes and see the different ways you can get around the fretboard looking at it this way. You need to have your ring finger on the right G position yes . But that is to facilitate the bends . This emphasizes the rythem positions when he breaks out . But I point out that if you take a progression in A and use your ring finger to map the pentatonic scale up to the high E string using your pinky stock pentatonic style you have to move outside that box . Lets say you use your middle finger on low E string note A and start your scale pattern their your in a different position . Plus Ed uses his pinky , most do not . So Up down picking to start . A middle finger on the fifth fret index index on the third fret B string pink on the B string , index on the D string fifth fret snapped down to the B string ring finger on the seventh , you can see a new road . Work your way up to the high E string eighth fret index snap down to the B with your ring finger , you can see the map again . Eighth , tenth , twelve fret is right their . Index , middle or ring depending on what is comfortable and pinky . High E pinky ring middle , B pinky ring middle descending and fill in the gaps off the road map . Its right their . Think Ice cream Man . Ed stretches . And he plays the pentatonic . Its hard writing this to explain but I want to make this apparent , because I guess its elusive . I just figured it out myself 20 years ago and its something I do not think about anymore . Blues is like take Eric Johnson or Joe Bonamassa . They had built on Gary Moore . You have to use the pinky and stretch with alternate picking . Lukather , Gilmore and Schon did this let alone Lynch . Just look at Malmsteen Far Beyond the Sun and map his fretboard for that song . Its all right their . I know your an advanced player and you sound awesome from what I have heard . Explaining this stuff is hard without diagrams . But the best learining tool is our mind and taking an octive and putting on paper and looking at it . Knowing we have to use the whole fretboard and alternate picking . The listening confirms what strings we need to play and a G string is a G string . Bending is another thing to seriously consider .You have to have THAT finger , whatever you prefer to dig and bend the string . Up or down , Pull or Push , its up to you . But the picking is critical because you may need a harmonic pinch in their and if your in the wrong spot its a no go . And you will know it . Trial and error , but it builds your knowledge of what you are hearing . That's why I emphasized Eruption .He has so much going on in his fast execution it deserves to be slowed down and those licks are still lost and under emphasized . Not in blues tones , I know what you mean their . But Clapton was in position to bend the notes and moved in a planned way , just like Page . Page has his own box and boxes he plays in . Its obvious when you hit it so you gotta strive to find it . Mel Bay and even transcribers like Vai of Eruption totally missed a lot of important stuff . When if we noodle on our own we can hear it . Each string , each position to bend and each position to get the right growl . Hats off to pointing out such a good thread , but you never expected to have this one to be easy right? SRV is another hybrid in this regard , he did the same thing with Hendrix . He took Jimi and took it further with his own positions . Granted Ed can play Clapton like Clapton and we should too , but the expanded fretboard lets you put Malmsteen into SRV and EVH into Clapton .

[garbeaj]

Plexified, the thing is you keep talking about many different players and tips for being a better guitar player overall. I'm NOT talking about that. I'm talking about (and wjamflan is talking about) the specific link between Clapton's live Cream playing and Eddie's playing. The thread is specifically about this. I agree with everything you say about your tips for being a better overall guitarist, but this thread is specifically about gaining a better understanding of Ed's playing by actually learning the live Cream songs I mentioned.

If you can play the one lick at the end of the live version of "Sitting On Top Of The World", then can you see the many instances that Ed uses the specific notes and right hand picking directions that Bill has noted in many, many posts on this forum over the last several years?

[plexified]

Ok , Garbaej , I listened to Standing on top of the world . And to all others that read this thread , DO NOT listen to Standing on top of the world if you want to learn about the things Edward Van Halen of the planet earth has to offer . That song is shit. Ok . Get where plexified is coming from ? For the rest of it , read what I wrote , wasting my time addressing a fucking white unicorn post of unicorn shit , hey maybe you might learn something , as for Clapton , fuck Clapton learn the rule of Kings . Freddie King , Albert King and BB King . Now you got a fucking thread worth a damn . Watch TV to learn Clapton . And BTW I love the guy , with his cross road stuff and all . BUT , no blues player pulls up to his studio in a forest reserve and has a valet allow him out of his car to unlock his studio of air conditioned guitars and waiting musicians to sing about how down and low he is . I would not piss on him if he was on fire . ON FIRE . Now that's a song . Screw that shit . Plexified is back!

[plexified]

So fuck sitting on top of the world , that's a fucking daydream while your on the Disney boat sailing to an island that does not exist hopefully hung over and your dick is sore . Plug in and tune up to a song like Street fighting Man from the Lynch Mob . Fuck that Eddie Van Halen dude for now . He will nag on you later . And later you will drink Wild Turkey and smoke a pack of Marlboro reds . Just like Ed so you can work on sounding like Ed . Oh , another BONUS fucking guitar lesson to play like E . You are all so lucky to be above ground , able to read this garbaej , its amazing . So put on your big boy or girl pants , tighten your belt sit down shut up and use alternate picking with a Dunlop jazz III and start from the beginning . First fret open , index, middle , ring , pinky , and jump up.......

[wjamflan]

as for Clapton , fuck Clapton learn the rule of Kings .

Plexified - while I agree that learning the licks of B.B., Albert, and Freddy is a very worthwhile exercise in learning how to play with feel (rhythmic, not funny faces ) you would be remiss if you wanted to learn to play like EVH and didn't learn Clapton's live Cream licks. The important thing in that last statement is "learn to play like EVH". Why? Because that's what Ed did. Eric expanded on the Kings, and Ed expanded upon the Clapton licks with other influences and his own inventions. In the interest of full disclosure, I believe that the most important thing Ed got from Eric was the rhythmic feel that B.B. King played with (Freddy and Albert also copied this). But I digress.....

So fuck sitting on top of the world

Overlook SOTOTW at your own peril if you want to "learn to play like EVH". Why? I'll provide an example of where Ed used the licks from the cadenza that Allen is talking about.

First, here are the two licks from the cadenza:

Sitting On Top Of The World (cadenza) - Lick 1

--------------H----P-------------------------------------
E---15----------------------------------------------------
B---------15---18---15----------------------------------
G--------------------------17----------------------------
D---------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U----------------U-----------------------------

****Pick direction: D = down; U = up

****Legato: H = hammer on; P = pull off - they are in between the notes



Sitting On Top Of The World (cadenza) - Lick 2

--------------H----P-------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
B---15---15---18---15----------------------------------
G--------------------------17----------------------------
D---------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U----------------U----------------------------

****Pick direction: D = down; U = up

****Legato: H = hammer on; P = pull off - they are in between the notes


The following is a section of the Girl Gone Bad solo (discussed recently) that is often transcribed incorrectly:

Girl Gone Bad (2:35)

--------H----H----------------P-----P---------------------P----P---------------------P-----P------------
E---------------------14---20---17---14--------14--------------------------14--------------------------
B---14---17---20---------------------------X---------20---17---14--------------20---17---14---------
G------------------------------------------------------------------------20--------------------------20---
D-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----D-----------------D---U----------------U----D---U----------------U----D----U----------------U---
----------------------|-----SOTOTW-2------|--|-----SOTOTW-1------|--|-----SOTOTW-1-------|---



-------------P-----P-------*--------P----------------P----P----------P--------B1.5>R>B1--------------
E---14--------------------14------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B--------20---17---14---------17---14---14--------------------------(14)------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------------17---16---14---17---14---14--------------------------
D-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U---------------D----U-----------D----U----------------D----------D--------------------------
----|-SOTOTW-1mod-|----------------------------------------------------------------------------


There are many examples of this in EVH's playing. He did the same with other Clapton licks as well, but I think Allen's point is that you wouldn't have that insight unless you took the time to learn the licks. Cherry Lane sure doesn't have that insight. They mess these things up all the time.

Bottom line: we're just trying to help people who want to "learn to play like EVH". It took a lot of time to learn these lessons and gain the insight. Ignore it if you wish. Listen to Lynch if you wish. But doing so will not help you "learn to play like EVH".

Regards,

Bill

[garbeaj]

Bill is correct. I've said it before, but I need to make a clip where I play the various live Cream licks that Bill notated above and compare them to the Ed licks that came from them. It is easier to show than to tell. It is a little tough for me to get a moment to make a clip since my wife and I just welcomed our first child (a baby girl) into the world two weeks ago and we are both struggling to eat and sleep ourselves while taking care of a newborn:)

But I promise, I will eventually make a clip that will make the relationship between the live Cream licks and so many of Ed's fastest and greatest licks crystal clear. I think Bill's examples already make this distinction, but as I said...it is easier to show than to just tell.

[rgalpin]

Sitting On Top Of The World (cadenza) - Lick 1

--------------H----P-------------------------------------
E---15----------------------------------------------------
B---------15---18---15----------------------------------
G--------------------------17----------------------------
D---------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U----------------U-----------------------------

****Pick direction: D = down; U = up

****Legato: H = hammer on; P = pull off - they are in between the notes



Sitting On Top Of The World (cadenza) - Lick 2

--------------H----P-------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
B---15---15---18---15----------------------------------
G--------------------------17----------------------------
D---------------------------------------------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U----------------U----------------------------

****Pick direction: D = down; U = up

****Legato: H = hammer on; P = pull off - they are in between the notes

hmmm... I would start these patterns with an upstroke. am i alone in that? all those patterns that begin with a picked note on the high E string followed immediately by a picked note on the B string - they always seem to flow out of a setup note/slide up to the position that is a down stroke - leading you to naturally start the pattern with an up stroke on the high E string - so then the REPEATING pattern revolves around the 3 notes that are picked like a machine gun - followed by the hammers and pull offs - and the 3 picked notes are coming out of your picking hand: DOWN UP DOWN - the first DOWN being the LAST note of the pattern as tabbed here - the note picked on the G string. BIDDYDAH --- BIDDYDAH --- BIDDYDAH. And the DAH is a strong DOWN pick that allows you a lot of string energy for the hammer and or pulloff - plus it feels good to have that last of the 3 notes picked be an authoritative DOWN stroke.

so the note picked on the high E in this pattern when you repeat it actually becomes the 2nd NOTE of the 3 note picking "burst" every time around the horn there...

so, my point / question / comment is i was surprised to see that lick starting with a down stroke - and had to force myself to try and play it that way - and it did not come out naturally for me like that. anybody else think/play that way? probably not. haha! but i am still curious to know what others have experienced in this kind of a BIDDYDAH UP DOWN UP or DOWN UP DOWN type of pattern.

also - of note in the context of this thread - that blues picking pattern between the E and B string are DEEP DEEP in the DNA of EVH playing and feel. imo. so the way you do it has everything to do with capturing his feel.

[mapat]

Bill is correct. I've said it before, but I need to make a clip where I play the various live Cream licks that Bill notated above and compare them to the Ed licks that came from them. It is easier to show than to tell. It is a little tough for me to get a moment to make a clip since my wife and I just welcomed our first child (a baby girl) into the world two weeks ago and we are both struggling to eat and sleep ourselves while taking care of a newborn:)

But I promise, I will eventually make a clip that will make the relationship between the live Cream licks and so many of Ed's fastest and greatest licks crystal clear. I think Bill's examples already make this distinction, but as I said...it is easier to show than to just tell.

Conratulationn on your new arrival garbeaj!

You need to start playing VH for her as soon as is possible.

And the cradle will rock indeed!

[garbeaj]

Thanks very much! I've already got her a mini-Squier strat that I'm tricking out just in case she wants to start playing at a young age:)

[wjamflan]

hmmm... I would start these patterns with an upstroke. am i alone in that?

Hey Rob. You are probably not alone in that, but let me see if I can explain why I don't do it that way, and more importantly, why I think Ed doesn't.

so, my point / question / comment is i was surprised to see that lick starting with a down stroke

The reason I believe Ed and Eric started these licks with a downstroke was how they were being used. For instance, let's look at the second lick (Lick 2).

This lick is played 5 times consecutively by Clapton in the cadenza. Here it is written out two times in a row:

Sitting On Top Of The World (cadenza) - Lick 2 - twice

--------------H----P----------------------H----P-------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------
B---15---15---18---15---------15---15---18---15----------
G--------------------------17--------------------------17----
D--------------------------------------------------------------
A--------------------------------------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------
-----D----U----------------U----D----U----------------U----
---------------------------|-LINK-|---------------------------



If you tried doing it your way, it would look like the following:

Sitting On Top Of The World (cadenza) - Lick 2 - twice - rgalpin

--------------H----P----------------------H----P-------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------
B---15---15---18---15---------15---15---18---15----------
G--------------------------17--------------------------17----
D--------------------------------------------------------------
A--------------------------------------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------
-----U----D----------------U----U----D----------------U----
---------------------------|-LINK-|---------------------------

Do you see the link between the licks? I believe doing it your way would mean using two upstrokes in a row or having to switch to my down - up - down pattern in order to play them consecutively. In addition, Clapton played Lick 1 and Lick 2 consecutively, so you run into the same problem. Ed routinely combined these patterns in multiple ways to create whole new licks, but the concept was always the same.

I say give it another try with this in mind and let us know how you do. Allen is right to say that once you get this down, a whole slew of Ed's licks make sense and become much easier to play.

Hope that helps.

Bill