5150 Wood Revisited

[mkramer5150]

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum and have thoroughly enjoyed reading the many posts about Ed's magical 5150 (of which, I admit, I'm obsessed). Suffice it to say, I have learned a lot.

That said, I'd like to once again solicit the opinions of any fellow Eddie nuts out there as to what wood the 5150 was made from. Perhaps someone has some new information to contribute -- or, better yet, new pictures that have yet to make the rounds.

The leading wood candidates, in order of popularity, seem to be 1) basswood 2) swamp ash and 3) poplar. It seems most people who have weighed in on the subject have ruled out poplar. The majority view seems to be that the 5150 is basswood; the minority view argues that it is swamp ash (full disclosure: I throw in with the swamp ash crowd).

If I understand the arguments correctly, they are summarized as follows:

Basswood:
1) Ed's choosing basswood for the 5150 would be consistent with his selection of basswood for each succeeding signature guitar he has released (i.e., EBMM, Peavey Wolfgang and EVH Wolfgang).

2)The wear and tear on the 5150, as evidenced by the No Bozos pictures, is consistent with what one would expect of a basswood guitar (particularly the crack from the Floyd post to the PUP cavity and the multiple strap lock holes on the bottom of the guitar).

3)The grain pattern in the No Bozos pictures that is strongly indicative of swamp ash can be explained away by the fact that certain cuts of basswood exhibit a similar grain pattern.

4) The wood that is visible on the back of the guitar seems to have the subtle greenish tint that is the hallmark of basswood.

5)Several highly respected individuals who are apparently somehow connected to Van Halen claim to have held the actual 5150 and have reported that, in their opinion, the guitar is unmistakably basswood.

6)A few confirmed Van Halen insiders, including Zeke Clark (Eddie's guitar tech from the '80s) have supposedly verified that the 5150 is, in fact, a basswood guitar.

Swamp Ash:
1) Ed's choosing of swamp ash for the 5150 would be consistent with his selection of ash (swamp or northern) for the Frankie. Furthermore, each successive signature basswood guitar that Eddie has released post-5150 has been maple topped -- assuming the 5150 is NOT basswood, he has never regularly used a basswood guitar without a maple top.

2) Is the wear and tear really what one would expect of a basswood guitar? Without question, the 5150 is beat up -- but it just doesn't look quite as bad as one would think given its roughly six to seven years of tour abuse ('84--'91). Basswood, after all, is notoriously fragile -- especially in an unvarnished form (such as the 5150). Absent the protection provided by a lacquer-like finish (such as is applied to the EBMM, Peavey Wolfgang, and EVH Wolfgang), basswood can literally be dented by one's finger. Clearly, the 5150 was never babied (the headstock cracked, after all). Given this, wouldn't we expect the body of the guitar to have utterly catastrophic damage and perhaps even large "chips/gauges" in it were it truly made of basswood?

3) Has anyone actually offered photographic proof that a basswood grain pattern can resemble that of ash?

4)That visible wood on the back of the guitar also seems to show an ash-like grain pattern -- perhaps the subtle greenish hue stems from nothing more than poor lighting in the room where the picture was snapped.

5) This is nothing more than hearsay. Someone claims someone else said such and such . . .

6) Ditto 5 above.

I find the swamp ash arguments more persuasive -- primarily because I just can't accept that basswood would exhibit the grain pattern that we clearly see in the No Bozos pictures.

But I also think the 5150 just sounds more like a swamp ash guitar than a basswood guitar.

Below are a few links I'd like to toss out for everyone's comments. Now, granted, amp types and settings, PUP types, effects used and player pick attack all play an enormous factor in how a guitar will sound. But that said, the 5150 just seems to have a certain crunchy "pop" or "bite" to it that sounds an awful lot like the swamp ash clip. Please understand, I'm not talking about the overall tone of the guitar, which, again, can be enormously affected by the type of amp one plays through, the pick-ups he uses, etc. I'm only referencing that "bite" one hears coming from the strings -- it's almost as if the notes "pop" out at you.

The first clip is of Eddie himself at the opening of the Cabo Wabo cantina circa 1990-1991:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgY2rt_e84E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a clip reviewing a PRS swamp ash guitar w/ a maple neck (which, if my theory is correct, is the same wood combo of the 5150 itself) -- really focus in on how the notes just "pop" out at you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2k0r3dP87A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finally, as a point of comparison, here's a review of the high-end Satriani signature Ibanez, which is an all basswood guitar. To my ears, I just don't hear that crunchy "pop" that I hear in the first two clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2axm2BqkpY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyhow, thanks for reading and, agree or disagree, please let me know what you guys think!

Mike

[Bore Em at the Forum]

Mike - just went through this over the past few days.

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=40831" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Welcome!

[vanhalen5150]

As far as the tearing out of floyd screw, the same think happened to the original franky. That was ash.

[dirtycooter]

I am not Ed. But my peronal opinion is ash (swamp or northern) is superior to basswood period.
Durability, sustain, snap, articulation, sustain, resonance of body vibration.... I dunno bout you but I have learned to LOVE ASH!
It just rings and sings better than even mahogany does to my ears.

I do think its very possible though that the 5150 Kramer is basswood. Somewhere he got a boner for that wood. Hard tellin where and I sure as hell dunno why. But maybe he had a (lmao-he had shit tons of all kinds) spare guitar he picked up and and played unplugged and thought it was the shit.
One thing is for certain to me though-it don't really matter. He had ash, basswood, mahogany set necks, or korina V or whatever..... basswood with or without maple...
I know Vai's long running sig Jem is basswood and he has stayed very consistent to it. Snatriani as well.
I don't see what gives with basswood. I would like to hear something from Ed, Snatch, or Vai on this issue as to wtf is so special about this wood. I mean.... to play it doesn't do much for me, to construct a guitar from it makes me question its durability... whats great???? I can't seem to find one thing positive about basswood other than its cheap as hell to obtain.
MAYBE .. it could very well be its consistency of grain and density that leaves no suprises. Its a very uniform wood in that regard.
Vai did make a comment in an interview on youtube with rebecca from premier guitar-he snapped the body then snapped the neck with his finger makin a "thunk" sound. He said "you hear that? They are the same pitch. The neck and body are at the same resonance. It makes the notes sing a certain way when you get that". And to hear it done by Vai-yes, the taps did sound lime the same even though it was a smaller thiiner maple neck agains a bigger duller bodywood.

But I have to admit I have heard some ebmm's pull off all kinds of diverse shit with killer sound.
Eds not one of them really. Sammy era had some tones but I love that raw old VH tone. So I gravitate toward that direction too as well when thinkin of what he used or was using.

[vanhalen5150]

I've played the Vai and Scratch models. They sound fine through all the effects processors those guys use. If you want to sound like them. As far as Ed using basswood. Yeah, but there is a big 5/8ths slab of maple sitting on top of it.

[dirtycooter]

I will also add that when I played a smartwood series swamp ash les paul in a Guitar Center in Nashville TN it was the best sounding paul I ever layed my dick beaters on. I find one again and got the coin I am layin it down fo sho. The day I bought my 5153 I tested it with a PRS Jonny Highland sig swamp ash.
The way the body resonated and the way the attack of the notes just sprang off like the feedback you would get from a formula one cars steering wheel was just phenominal. I never get that feeling unplugged or plugged with any basswood guitar ever and I played probably a good solid 25 guitars made of basswood trampin around stores.
+1 on the brighter maple cap Eds totin. SA.... NAP!!

Alder would be a beefier sturdier middle ground between bass and ash. I feel its dna is closer to basswood. It has a dark mid tone I have come to recognize. But its fat generally with not too much high end bite like ash bit more than basswood. I think the mids are more prominent on alder as well.
The opening to Naturally Wired has that kinda bark to it. It wouldn't suprise me if 5150 was Alder.

[garbeaj]

The thing to remember when discussing the 5150 guitar...is that we are discussing the 5150 guitar.

We are not discussing what we prefer or what we think sounds better than basswood. Rather we should be discussing what we think sounds closest to the 5150 guitar in it's more or less natural state (little to no Harmonizer and using the baby Marshall) in the Letterman, Farm Aid and Van Halen: Unleashed clips. The pickup is such a mystery that no one has solved either, so really any replica body wood or pickup choice is just a shot in the dark anyway.

My opinion hasn't changed, but I'm not saying that I'm absolutely right about it. As I've said many, many, many times before: We'll never know unless a scientific analysis is done of the wood from the body of the original guitar to determine the specific species of wood on the specific 5150 guitar.

[garbeaj]

Mike - just went through this over the past few days.

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=40831" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Welcome!

+1

[garbeaj]

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum and have thoroughly enjoyed reading the many posts about Ed's magical 5150 (of which, I admit, I'm obsessed). Suffice it to say, I have learned a lot.

That said, I'd like to once again solicit the opinions of any fellow Eddie nuts out there as to what wood the 5150 was made from. Perhaps someone has some new information to contribute -- or, better yet, new pictures that have yet to make the rounds.

The leading wood candidates, in order of popularity, seem to be 1) basswood 2) swamp ash and 3) poplar. It seems most people who have weighed in on the subject have ruled out poplar. The majority view seems to be that the 5150 is basswood; the minority view argues that it is swamp ash (full disclosure: I throw in with the swamp ash crowd).

If I understand the arguments correctly, they are summarized as follows:

Basswood:
1) Ed's choosing basswood for the 5150 would be consistent with his selection of basswood for each succeeding signature guitar he has released (i.e., EBMM, Peavey Wolfgang and EVH Wolfgang).

2)The wear and tear on the 5150, as evidenced by the No Bozos pictures, is consistent with what one would expect of a basswood guitar (particularly the crack from the Floyd post to the PUP cavity and the multiple strap lock holes on the bottom of the guitar).

3)The grain pattern in the No Bozos pictures that is strongly indicative of swamp ash can be explained away by the fact that certain cuts of basswood exhibit a similar grain pattern.

4) The wood that is visible on the back of the guitar seems to have the subtle greenish tint that is the hallmark of basswood.

5)Several highly respected individuals who are apparently somehow connected to Van Halen claim to have held the actual 5150 and have reported that, in their opinion, the guitar is unmistakably basswood.

6)A few confirmed Van Halen insiders, including Zeke Clark (Eddie's guitar tech from the '80s) have supposedly verified that the 5150 is, in fact, a basswood guitar.

Swamp Ash:
1) Ed's choosing of swamp ash for the 5150 would be consistent with his selection of ash (swamp or northern) for the Frankie. Furthermore, each successive signature basswood guitar that Eddie has released post-5150 has been maple topped -- assuming the 5150 is NOT basswood, he has never regularly used a basswood guitar without a maple top.

2) Is the wear and tear really what one would expect of a basswood guitar? Without question, the 5150 is beat up -- but it just doesn't look quite as bad as one would think given its roughly six to seven years of tour abuse ('84--'91). Basswood, after all, is notoriously fragile -- especially in an unvarnished form (such as the 5150). Absent the protection provided by a lacquer-like finish (such as is applied to the EBMM, Peavey Wolfgang, and EVH Wolfgang), basswood can literally be dented by one's finger. Clearly, the 5150 was never babied (the headstock cracked, after all). Given this, wouldn't we expect the body of the guitar to have utterly catastrophic damage and perhaps even large "chips/gauges" in it were it truly made of basswood?

3) Has anyone actually offered photographic proof that a basswood grain pattern can resemble that of ash?

4)That visible wood on the back of the guitar also seems to show an ash-like grain pattern -- perhaps the subtle greenish hue stems from nothing more than poor lighting in the room where the picture was snapped.

5) This is nothing more than hearsay. Someone claims someone else said such and such . . .

6) Ditto 5 above.

I find the swamp ash arguments more persuasive -- primarily because I just can't accept that basswood would exhibit the grain pattern that we clearly see in the No Bozos pictures.

But I also think the 5150 just sounds more like a swamp ash guitar than a basswood guitar.

Below are a few links I'd like to toss out for everyone's comments. Now, granted, amp types and settings, PUP types, effects used and player pick attack all play an enormous factor in how a guitar will sound. But that said, the 5150 just seems to have a certain crunchy "pop" or "bite" to it that sounds an awful lot like the swamp ash clip. Please understand, I'm not talking about the overall tone of the guitar, which, again, can be enormously affected by the type of amp one plays through, the pick-ups he uses, etc. I'm only referencing that "bite" one hears coming from the strings -- it's almost as if the notes "pop" out at you.

The first clip is of Eddie himself at the opening of the Cabo Wabo cantina circa 1990-1991:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgY2rt_e84E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a clip reviewing a PRS swamp ash guitar w/ a maple neck (which, if my theory is correct, is the same wood combo of the 5150 itself) -- really focus in on how the notes just "pop" out at you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2k0r3dP87A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finally, as a point of comparison, here's a review of the high-end Satriani signature Ibanez, which is an all basswood guitar. To my ears, I just don't hear that crunchy "pop" that I hear in the first two clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2axm2BqkpY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyhow, thanks for reading and, agree or disagree, please let me know what you guys think!

Mike

Excellent points and a great breakdown of the theories...

[mkramer5150]

Bore Em at the Forum wrote:
Mike - just went through this over the past few days.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=40831

Welcome!

Thanks; it's great to come aboard! And apologies for rehashing ground that was recently covered -- I somehow missed the earlier thread on the 5150, which was a great discussion.

The only thing I'd offer an additional two cents on is the sound element of the 5150 itself. Garbeaj hit the nail on the head when he observed that, in our quest to identify the 5150's wood type, we really need to focus on the actual sound of the guitar.

To that end, Dirtycooter gave a great description of what I mean by the 5150's seeming to have a crunchy, dynamic "pop" when he wrote in regard to his experience with a swamp ash guitar:

"The way the body resonated and the way the attack of the notes just sprang off like the feedback you would get from a formula one cars steering wheel was just phenominal. I never get that feeling unplugged or plugged with any basswood guitar ever and I played probably a good solid 25 guitars made of basswood trampin around stores."

That "notes springing off the guitar" dynamic that Dirtycooter describes is precisely what I typically hear when I listen to Ed play the 5150. The 5150 seems to have a "pop" to it that I just don't hear w/ basswood guitars.

Don't get me wrong, my purpose is not to trash basswood -- in fact, I've heard some basswood guitars that I really like. But that said, every basswood guitar I've ever heard has, to my ears at least, had a somewhat "mushy" sound to it. Basswood guitars simply lack that "snap, crackle and pop" that I hear in swamp ash guitars.

Satriani is a great example of what I'm talking about. He is an astonishing player, but his tone, at least when he plays his signature basswood Ibanez, is sorta "muddy." Even Eddie, my personal guitar hero, has had a pronounced "muddiness" to his tone ever since he switched over to the basswood/maple guitar platform (this "muddiness" is particularly noticeable in his live tone).

By contrast, I don't hear that "muddiness" when I listen to his recordings/live performances from the 5150/OU812 era.

Two other quick points:

VanHalen5150 noted that the Floyd pivot posts on the Frankie ripped out just like on the 5150. Has anyone else noticed this? I don't know near as much about the Frankie as I do the 5150 -- but if that is true, it would seem to strengthen the 5150 as swamp ash argument.

Finally, on the grain pattern: I did a quick ebay search of basswood guitar bodies and then compared the results to swamp ash, poplar and alder guitar bodies. For what it's worth, the grain patterns I saw that most closely resemble that of the 5150 as seen in the No Bozos pictures are swamp ash and alder.

Lol, the plot thickens.

Thanks again for the insightful comments -- I always learn a ton from the forum's collective expertise!

[garbeaj]

I agree that I have never personally seen basswood with grain that looks like swamp ash, though many have said that they have seen such a grain in basswood, I've never seen such a grain. That doesn't mean that it isn't out there, but it is the one flaw in my basswood theory.

I have a swamp ash Telecaster that of course has that typical grain pattern that you see in all swamp and Northern ash guitars. It is also very soft and lightweight like basswood. You can make a dent in it with your fingernail just like you can with basswood.

Barring that observation, I do trust Scott Smith, jimi22812 and others on the basswood theory, and that is ultimately what persuaded me to go with basswood for my current black Kramer '5150' replica.

I know Eddie's tone sucked after 0U812 with the signature guitars, but the other main culprit of mushy, muddy toned Eddie is the switch from the baby Marshall and other Marshalls to the Soldano amps and eventual signature amps, so I wouldn't lay all the blame on the basswood with maple topped guitars-the amps suck just as hard! (That being said, I think Eddie's current ADKOT tone is still muddy for my taste, but it seems to be better than the previous albums...now if we could go back in time to prevent Eddie from ever meeting Jerry Cantrell who got Ed hooked on the wah-wah )

[mkramer5150]

"now if we could go back in time to prevent Eddie from ever meeting Jerry Cantrell who got Ed hooked on the wah-wah )"

You're not kidding -- I absolutely abhor Ed's fascination with that damnable wah pedal!!!!!

As an aside -- does anyone else think Van Halen could benefit by lowering the volume at their concerts? They play so loud that it hurts my ears. I really can't enjoy Ed's brilliance at that volume -- it's borderline painful. Maybe I'm just getting old

I saw the Police on their reunion tour a few years ago -- I also caught Billy Idol w/ Steve Stevens back in 2005: both shows were performed at the perfect volume. You could clearly hear what the musician's were doing yet your ears weren't bleeding afterwards, lol!

On Scott and Jimi: I've never had the pleasure of talking with these guys but would love to pick their brains sometime. Does anyone know how they obtained their in-depth knowledge about Van Halen? Were they guitar techs for Eddie back in the day?

Also, how, exactly, were the No Bozos pictures obtained? Did No Bozos himself take them? Did he work for EBMM? If so, I'd bet he'd have a treasure trove of info he could share as well.

[mkramer5150]

Garbeaj,

I forgot to ask: when you finish your 5150 replica, would you mind posting a short youtube clip? I'd love to hear/see how it turns out!

Some of the replicas I've seen on the web are absolutely amazing in their attention to detail. There are so many incredibly talented people out there. I'm going to be commissioning my own 5150 replica soon. I would build it myself but, unfortunately, I sorely lack the artistic skill required to stripe and relic the thing, so I'm going to have to find someone far more adept than me to do it, lol.

[garbeaj]

I can only speak a little about jimi. He was among the first in online forums for replicas and he really knows his shit backwards and forwards and he has learned alot from being very active on all the forums. I'm not sure what the rest of his story is, but I really respect him alot.

Scott is of course with Musikraft and he is also one of the earliest and most preeminent replica builders. I believe he has built near perfect replicas of all of Eddie's known guitars...and that's one hell of a lot of guitars. He has had some interaction with Eddie on some level, though I don't know all the details. I know he gave Eddie a replica VH striped drill to use on "Poundcake" at some point. He used to have great pics of his massive collection of the replicas he built, but it seems like he took down that website for some reason.

[garbeaj]

Garbeaj,

I forgot to ask: when you finish your 5150 replica, would you mind posting a short youtube clip? I'd love to hear/see how it turns out!

Some of the replicas I've seen on the web are absolutely amazing in their attention to detail. There are so many incredibly talented people out there. I'm going to be commissioning my own 5150 replica soon. I would build it myself but, unfortunately, I sorely lack the artistic skill required to stripe and relic the thing, so I'm going to have to find someone far more adept than me to do it, lol.

I just had it painted all black, but I used a yellow Kramer block headstock logo and the rest of the details are the best I could come up with for a "5150" replica. I'll definitely post a clip when I get it back from being assembled and intonated by my tech, which should be in a week or so. I've waited since 1985 to have this guitar, so I'm really pumped!