Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

The man, the band, and everything else

Moderators: VelvetGeorge, RACKSYSTEMS

Post Reply
User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by garbeaj » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Tone Slinger wrote::shock: I just got through looking at Ed's 'Bare' Franky pic again. I have made a mistake. I took it for granted that it was a center seamed 'BOOKMATCHED' (meaning either a 'V' or an 'A' endgrain ). So I distincly noticed the bottom half and deduced 'A' endgrain/ring orientation. It most certainly WAS a dog, cause it is NEITHER of those......but a hybrid of them. The BOTTOM piece is of the 'A' and the TOP piece is of the 'V' orientation.

I'll post a drawing of approximately what the endgrain join pattern is, also using the 'straight' grain pattern as it appears on either piece to get at the right angle of the rings in either piece.
Excellent idea...I noticed this same "hybrid" grain too, but wasn't sure if my eyes were fooling me.

I think that we're in total agreement again..as usual! As far as my "what if Rockstah got in a time machine and played through Ed's rig" scenario is where we do agree, we're just using some different language. I think Mark might have needed to adjust a bit to Ed's rig, but the same basic sounds would occur. My whole point about gear and fingerings/pick attack just make my overall point...that no guitar player is a god or demi-god...all things that have been played by a human can be played by another human given enough practice and effort. Hendrix was as close to a god as a musician could be, in my opinion, but he was a man.

I just think that far too many people use this mythological thinking that most guitarists use when they put players like Ed, Hendrix, etcetera on a pedestal is just an excuse that people use for not practicing enough and not studying the artist hard enough. And the same goes for mythologizing the gear...humans made the gear and all gear that has ever been created was made by human hands and it wasn't some miracle that can never be reproduced again.

That said, the point at which we stop caring about reproducing another artist's work is the point at which we become truer artists to our own inner selves.

User avatar
Tone Slinger
Senior Member
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:31 am

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by Tone Slinger » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:48 pm

+1 on that last sentence Allen :champ: , thats what is really important, cause "Nobody can be somebody else "
Rip Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah)

User avatar
rgorke
Senior Member
Posts: 4509
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:37 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Drought Ravaged SoCal

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by rgorke » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:15 pm

1) I think this "A" or hybrid two piece plays a role in what type of pickup could go with what type of body. Seems that a lower output pickup might work better, at least a lower output pickup works better with my "A" guitar. The other thing is that this guitar weighs a lot. It is much heavier than all of my others (Strat type).

2) In terms of emulating someone, unless one is trying to actually be that person in a tribute band and going all out, I would think that the best approach is to take what you like and use that. Ed even said he tried to play like Clapton and couldn't. There are many players that I try to emulate that end up sounding either 1) me trying to be them and falling very short or 2) me taking bits and pieces and being me.
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

User avatar
Tone Slinger
Senior Member
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:31 am

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by Tone Slinger » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:47 pm

Well Ed's Franky is ash, and we can tell that it was bright obviously (as ALL ash is) and had a very DIRECT projection (just listen to the early '79 ROSEN interview, Ed is FIRST playing his FRANKY.....3/4th of the way in, he switches to ROSENS "65" strat (Alder). Ed's Franky is a slightly more DIRECT,hard & biting tone, but the '65 strat was BROADER/Darker, even with its single coils (though Ed was messing with positions 4 and 5 on Rosens 5 way blade, etc, which is partly the reason).

I know of NO current Company that produce the center seam ANY OTHER WAY, but the 'Bookmatched' ('A' or 'V'), and even those companies wont let you choose even THAT,though WARMOTH consistantly use the 'v' seam. Mitch at KnE will work with you (he has with me in regards to getting either 'A' or 'V' center seams :thumbsup: ). So if you send him a drawing of the 'hybrid' (really its just WRONG :peace: ) endgrain orientation (top half 'V', bottom half 'A'), then he would do it. I havent tried this though, but STILL.....I think that it would be 'inbetween' the overall sonic quality of the Bookmatched center seamed ('V' or 'A'), with the 'V' being superior to the 'A'.
Rip Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah)

User avatar
wjamflan
Senior Member
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:06 am
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by wjamflan » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:07 pm

Tone Slinger wrote:Here are the possibilities concerning 2 piece center seam construction.These are 'bookmatched' cause they look like an open book. These are butt end illustrations with guitar layed on its back. ANY single blank is either an 'A' or a 'V', depending on how they are orientated (which side of the plank is top or bottom of the guitar). The 'V' and 'm' is the same, only the ring angle is a bit different. Same goes for the 'A' and 'w'.
Sorry for the illustrations, I'm no artist :peace: .

The Franky is part 'A' (bottom piece) and 'V' (top Piece). Oddly enough, Mark (rip) posted a shot of his Divebombinc. Franky body and it wasnt 'bookmatched' either. Again, this has been a pain to conclude, 'cause the pic isnt real 'sharp', but it IS NOT bookmatched',its an 'ODD MATCHED' two piece center seam :wink: It is hard to describe this stuff, WITHOUT using illustrations. I can go into further detail about this later.
Andy - cool explanation. Question for you: how can you tell from the naked Franky pic what the grain orientation is on the bottom when we can't see it? If I missed that explanation along the way, I apologize.

stef
Senior Member
Posts: 1407
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:05 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by stef » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:44 pm

Tone Slinger wrote:Mitch at KnE will work with you (he has with me in regards to getting either 'A' or 'V' center seams :thumbsup: ).
Yep!

EJSLPlexi
Senior Member
Posts: 894
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:44 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by EJSLPlexi » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:45 pm

One of these days i have to build a hard ash strat with a fender trem.
I love the acoustic tone from them.
maybe i will sell one of my jacksons and build a KNE or Warmouth real soon?
who offers the better neck? I like a old charvel profile. extra thin C with the 1-3/4 nut

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by garbeaj » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:14 am

EJSLPlexi wrote:One of these days i have to build a hard ash strat with a fender trem.
I love the acoustic tone from them.
maybe i will sell one of my jacksons and build a KNE or Warmouth real soon?
who offers the better neck? I like a old charvel profile. extra thin C with the 1-3/4 nut
Don't forget Musikraft! Along with KNE they offer the exact same Azusa body shapes and you can select any profile and nut width that you want, including my favorite neck profile the Kramer 5150/MusicMan asymmetrical profile.
Last edited by garbeaj on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by garbeaj » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:25 am

rgorke wrote:2) In terms of emulating someone, unless one is trying to actually be that person in a tribute band and going all out, I would think that the best approach is to take what you like and use that. Ed even said he tried to play like Clapton and couldn't. There are many players that I try to emulate that end up sounding either 1) me trying to be them and falling very short or 2) me taking bits and pieces and being me.
But the thing is that Ed says he doesn't sound like Clapton, but the truth is he DOES. And everyone that heard Ed play Cream in the early days knows that he mastered playing the live Cream material, just as Al learned all the Ginger Baker parts (which is very arguably much harder than Ed learning all the Clapton parts IMHO).

If you think you can't play something that someone else had played, think again. You CAN. You may have gotten frustrated and then given up, but you can truly learn how to play things just as well as your heroes did. This whole notion of being totally original is insane, especially when we are talking about studying Ed! This guy's entire style is based on Eric Clapton's live Cream playing. I say again, Bill and I have discussed this at length in the "Where Ed Plays On The Neck" thread and I think we have proved it to be true. There is no chance that you can understand how to play Ed's more "difficult" fast playing if you don't understand how to play the Clapton live Cream material properly...most especially including the exact fingerings and pick attack and overall feel. Ed DID NOT give up learning live Cream until he LEARNED it and played it note-for-note as Clapton played it.

User avatar
JimiJames
Senior Member
Posts: 3550
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:32 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by JimiJames » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:03 am

J. D. Simo should be bustin' out Eruption on his ES-335 any day now...

User avatar
Tone Slinger
Senior Member
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:31 am

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by Tone Slinger » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:44 am

Bill, I'll try and post a graph or even the pic of 'Ed & Bare Franky', circling the areas of 'indication' concerning the 'ring orientations'. The grain Lines (which are the rings) come off the face of the guitar on either side of the join at one of two different angles. On Ed's you can see this at the top horn at the contour as it goes into the 'rounded off' edge. Also, on the Bottom half you can see the grain come off the face of the guitar, going into that outer 'rounded off' (bevel?)edge of the guitar(butt).

This stuff is pretty darn hard to tell, cause either side of the plank can have a similar 'surface grain' pattern. The 'surface grain' patterns have MORE to do with the ANGLE of the cut, going along the grain, than the actual ORIENTATION of the rings.For ex. the top half of Ed's Franky has a grain pattern that might initially make one register 'A' orientation. This is the cut angle though, and the same pattern is represented in both orientations ('A'& 'V'), depending on the straitness of the grain and cut angle.The tell tale indication is always to the left and right sides of the join (In a 2 piece strat with pick guard, this is either side of the neck (pocket) and either side of the butt (where the strap button is ). The top half of Ed's strat I initially assumed was of the 'A' orientation, cause the bottom half was. 2 piece center seams are ALWAYS bookmatched (meaning either 'A' or 'V').....upon studying the upper horns rounded edge contour, I realized I was wrong. It most definately appears to be of the 'V' ring orientation.

Ed's Franky is a 'Mutt', by most standards( 'unmatched' two piece center seam).Being honest I was having alot of trouble accepting that it was a 'A',cause even though it is bright, it sounded SO good. I am pleased that at least the top half appears to be of the sonically superior 'V' join.
Rip Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah)

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by garbeaj » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:50 am

JimiJames wrote:J. D. Simo should be bustin' out Eruption on his ES-335 any day now...
Exactly!

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by garbeaj » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:53 pm

Here was Ron Dodson's 2 cents about the wood used for the Frankenstein's body as told to him by Lynn Ellsworth. Ron has been doing replicas forever and I trust his tale: (I found this in my thread about my '78 Black and White striped Franky build)...
rdodson wrote:
garbeaj wrote:I tend to fall in the camp that believes it was Ellsworth that actually made the neck and body for the original Frankenstein. No 100% proof, but this is my belief.
Lynn always maintained he did when I spoke with him (when I was doing work for the VH website), even so far as to say he still had some of the ash stock around from that body. The stock ended up being paint grade, and Wayne was (at that time) just doing sunbursts so that is why it was a second. Had some mineral streaking or a knot in it.

As for the question of "Northern vs. Swamp ash", LE just said it was ash, lighter but true swamp ash (from ash below the waterline in an ash tree from a swamp) never made it to California, especially to furniture wood suppliers which is where he was sourcing the wood from (he was a cabinet maker).

So, the "northern ash" thing probably came from Ed asking Lynn "is this swamp ash?" "No." But it wasn't baseball bat heavy ash regardless of subspecies. It was lighter. Possibly (per LE) kiln-dried.
rdodson wrote:Lynn cut the body, Schecter did do the templates. Lynn's own later templates were much different as he didn't care for Dave's take on the strat body.

User avatar
rdodson
Senior Member
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:15 am

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by rdodson » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:45 pm

Thanks for reposting that...saves me the trouble of finding or retyping!

Wayne had the shop. Dave Schecter (yes THAT Schecter) did the templates, Lynn (a cabinet maker - as in kitchen cabinets/furniture) sourced the wood and did the cutting.

I'm sure there was some overlap of duties and so forth as I'm told this was a laid-back affair and no one at the time was thinking "we are participating in making one of the most famous guitars in history".
Ron Dodson
Dallas
Romans 9:16

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Ed's Franky (beneath the paint)

Post by garbeaj » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:21 pm

You bet Ron...the picture and timeline of the unfinished Frankenstein just confirms what you've been saying all along. :champ:

Post Reply