How would you get Dirty Movies tone

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fivecoyote
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How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by fivecoyote » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:27 pm

Been obsessed with that tone for years, also FW in general which is noticeably different to my ears (warmer, a bit beefier) than the first 3 albums. Anyhow, to me Dirty Movies is, uh, "dirtier"/more distorted (gainier? "grindier"?) than even the other FW tones, yet it still has Ed's signature singing clarity and prominent upper mids. So if you had to replicate that tone, how would you do it?

I've tried with MV plexis and JCM 800-type amps with lower-output pickups and it gets close -- great tone and clarity, not enough oomph, distortion and sustain. Higher-output pickups get the sizzle but I lose the clarity. I "think" Ed is using a higher-output pickup on that tune, same plexi, warmth/beef from the board, but of course can't know for sure.

But again, not interested in theories on how he did it -- how would YOU replicate it?
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by Sean_McFly » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:32 pm

fivecoyote wrote:Been obsessed with that tone for years, also FW in general which is noticeably different to my ears (warmer, a bit beefier) than the first 3 albums. Anyhow, to me Dirty Movies is, uh, "dirtier"/more distorted (gainier? "grindier"?) than even the other FW tones, yet it still has Ed's signature singing clarity and prominent upper mids. So if you had to replicate that tone, how would you do it?

I've tried with MV plexis and JCM 800-type amps with lower-output pickups and it gets close -- great tone and clarity, not enough oomph, distortion and sustain. Higher-output pickups get the sizzle but I lose the clarity. I "think" Ed is using a higher-output pickup on that tune, same plexi, warmth/beef from the board, but of course can't know for sure.

But again, not interested in theories on how he did it -- how would YOU replicate it?
Ooh, very interesting study you started here! Depending on what amp I'm using, I'd replicate it with either: a mahogany/maple top strat or les paul with a 9/10k alnico V in the bridge for a bit of extra "chug" and meat if I were to use my 4550, OR a Mark-style setup of a REALLY dense/heavy northern ash or alder strat body with a new Super Distortion in the bridge if I was using a more JMP 2204 or Mod5 style setup. With the mod 5, I'd turn the preamp gain a bit past Mark's preferred settings, like to about 9, and keep the low end tight by keeping the stock pre-PIMV master volume at 7.9-8. With the bray, I'd set the presence to 9, the bass to 5.5, the mids and treble to 8 or 9 with the hot and harmonic switches activated/pulled out for that extra grind from the amp stage of the signal chain, and I'd dial in volume 1 at 10 and volume 2 at 3 for a tiny bit of low mid growl. Then, regardless of whether I was using the bray or the mod5, I'd mic either a blackback or greenback in the lower row of a 1960b 4x12 angled AND off axis for that more open mid-tone and high end sizzle/woodiness. But the key to this tone is less negative feedback present in the tone for a tighter response, but most importantly the mic placement :shred:!!
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by garbeaj » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:24 pm

Sean is correct on all counts! Mark got a really good "Dirty Movies" tone...listen to him do some riffs from that song at the very end of this clip of him playing through my amp:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11294718

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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by JimiJames » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:39 am

Part of rockstah's recording technique was to wear headphones while listening in real time or in cue mode moving the mic around to get a desired tone,
then record.
RIP Mark Abrahamian-rockstah -classmate/roommate
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by Sean_McFly » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:51 pm

JimiJames wrote:Part of rockstah's recording technique was to wear headphones while listening in real time or in cue mode moving the mic around to get a desired tone,
then record.
Ahh, the old Butch Vig "hiss" method. I do that too with all of my clips! In fact, I tone match to amp hiss from Mark's, Bray's, and Ed's clips and I attest all of my accuracy to that! It's the only reason I don't need to EQ my clips in post :)
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by garbeaj » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:18 pm

Sean_McFly wrote:
JimiJames wrote:Part of rockstah's recording technique was to wear headphones while listening in real time or in cue mode moving the mic around to get a desired tone,
then record.
Ahh, the old Butch Vig "hiss" method. I do that too with all of my clips! In fact, I tone match to amp hiss from Mark's, Bray's, and Ed's clips and I attest all of my accuracy to that! It's the only reason I don't need to EQ my clips in post :)
Whoa! Mind blown!

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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by fivecoyote » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:39 am

garbeaj that is a pretty good Dirty Movies tone, but not what I'm hearing on the album. To me it the album tone sounds Soldano-ish -- or some other boutique-like amp where there's a bunch of hair around the notes/chords making it sound hairy but not bumble bee buzzed out like modern "distortion" does. That make sense to anyone but me?

I really hear it right around here:

https://youtu.be/l7rS3itMibE?t=2m50s

Listen to the chords and the swooshes, or whatever, with the heel of his hand. To me that sounds ceramic and also something else...Echoplex boost?
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by garbeaj » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:11 pm

Hmmm...I agree that the Mod 5 is not "it". Honestly if you really want something that really gets there, I would recommend talking to David Bray. He can get VERY close to specific album tones and I think he could build or mod an amp that could get you a very, very good approximation of that sound.

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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by Sean_McFly » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:54 pm

garbeaj wrote:Hmmm...I agree that the Mod 5 is not "it". Honestly if you really want something that really gets there, I would recommend talking to David Bray. He can get VERY close to specific album tones and I think he could build or mod an amp that could get you a very, very good approximation of that sound.
Honestly, the Bray 4550 deluxe will get you there. The extra hair is easily achieved by pulling out the hot and harmonics switches. They add an extra bit of gain, bite, and top end, which is exactly what it seems the Dirty Movies tone possesses. Turn the bass down to 4 or 5 for extra tightness and you're there TBH! I can do a clip if you guys want
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by fivecoyote » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:34 pm

Heck yeah to that clip!!
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by Sean_McFly » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

fivecoyote wrote:Heck yeah to that clip!!
Sorry I was in Tennessee at my cousin's wedding, but I'll be able to do the Bray clip now!
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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by rgalpin » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:04 am

Agree with the assessment that FW was the first time we were hearing a certain pronounced hardness and headroom in the mids - less compressed allowing more "throw" as if the punch comes from way back in the back round house compared to the tones preceding FW that were short throw, so close to your face you cross your eyes trying to see where it came from.

First thing that comes to mind other than the Dirty Movies reference, is the solo in So This Is Love. It is as if you can hear the strap lock metal grinding through the wood and pickups and Ed's hands on the guitar - depth for days! detail and mojo exposed for our scrutiny.

Even though VH II was less compressed and mashed down than VH I and W&CF - that VH II sound didn't have that same "behind the curtain" feel heard on FW. Good stuff.

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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by Megaro » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:25 pm

Blend in an octave below with the rhythm parts. Definitely use a 4x12, and as much volume as you can stand. Kind of like the ride out on Drop Dead Legs. You don't immediately say octave down, it just sounds heavy and thick. My Ed tone conspiracy theory is that a lot of Ed's rhythm work on Fair Warning has a barely audible octave down on top of that Eventide wide stereo modulated, hazy, warm thing that it does. I hear it on Meanstreet (it is really subtle), and it is pretty noticeable on the Outro to Unchained. I wish we had an iso for Dirty Movies. Give it a try and see what you think.

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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by garbeaj » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:12 pm

There are octave down and fifth and octave up sounds going on at various times on the record, but on some of the leads. I don't hear any octave below on any of the rhythms on the album, so I don't hear it on "Mean Street".

The multi-octave sounds on the lead outro overdubs on "Unchained" are obvious, but I don't hear it in the rhythm parts on that song.

I've posted this before, but here is an example clip that I made of the multi-octave Eventide sounds on the outro of "So This Is Love" (which is very similar to what is going on in the lead outro parts on "Unchained"):

The octave doubling sounds are not on for the Coda that immediately follows.

I think the Harmonizer might be used for detune sounds in places on some of the rhythm tracks, but I just don't hear the sub-octave sound that we hear on the outro rhythm track of "Drop Dead Legs"...

Maybe I'm completely wrong...can you point out a specific instance where you are convinced that you hear the sub-octave effect on a rhythm track on Fair Warning? I know you said you hear it on "Mean Street", but any other place on a rhythm track?

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Re: How would you get Dirty Movies tone

Post by plexified » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:17 am

Hey ,
I got you here, I have a zoom g92.tt could be had for 150$ and no worry about it being used or having to change tubes. hit me up and I can send you program notes to the T. If you want to go big and shake the foundation of your house , ok too, gonna take a build for about 500$ for the head and a cab that will be another 500$. That's a good sound , but I would take the zoom and a stereo hi fi amp and speakers like you would play records through anyway and then you would have another 100 programs to play with. Trust me with this one and if it does not work , I will buy the zoom back on the spot. I get every VH tone with this unit , its unreal. Plexified

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