Metropoulos Forum

Posted: **Fri May 23, 2025 12:58 pm**

I'm posting this on Metro's forum because it deserves to be here. Image what RIP Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah) would be thinking about this? Even though it is very quiet now, Metroamp was ground zero for the Brownsound tone search.

Like Jim Gaustad, I personally searched every conceivable corner. I've built amps, speaker cabs, load boxes. I've slaved amps and have used Class D power amps also. I even soldered together an EchoPlex preamp pedal before they were widely available. But, I would have never in a million years thought of pulling tubes 4 & 5 on a 100 watt Class A/B Plexi and making the connection to Eddie's thinking process as a kid playing small-venue gigs. Pure genius always borders on craziness. Absolutely brilliant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu7Y_Yc ... ZMt4AaABAg
@jamesbarclay4363
5 days ago (edited)
I think Jim was talking about an interview with Ted Templeman given by David Gans where Ted said:

“Van Halen wanted me to produce their albums because they liked the way Ronnie Montrose sounded on the two albums I did with him. I know how to pull the tubes out of an old Marshall amp and make it hurt, you know? To make guitars sound like chainsaws.”
(Ted Templeman: Super Producer David Gans, BAM, 1982)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu7Y_Yc ... IIkT7C1ErM
Jim Gaustad
·
@jegauss
4 days ago
Thanks for finding that quote!!!!

Posted: **Fri May 23, 2025 1:53 pm**

Thanks for nailing down that quote, and who said it.

For what it's worth.. member VHohilic from New Jersey was posting clips here 20 years ago where he was running one 6CA7 (a.k.a. 3 power tubes pulled) and it sounded glorious.

So.. nothing new here.

Unfortunately, his old clip hosting site www.vhoholic.com is no more.

edit: but I managed to find it on the Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... holic.com/

Posted: **Sat May 24, 2025 9:47 am**

PLX wrote: ↑
Fri May 23, 2025 1:53 pm
edit: but I managed to find it on the Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... holic.com/

Thanks PLX!!!! Finding VHoholic's archived webpage is fantastic. This info could have been lost in the digital black hole of the web like a needle in a billion haystacks.

Ground Zero...

I've been reading the subject threads here since the 2000's and I never managed to land on VHoholic's test recordings. How crazy is that?

Went searching far and wide for the Brownsound only to come back to Metro and discover that the answer was hiding here in plain sight all along.

Here ends the journey. I am content.

Feel your love tonight(w/album)(one tube)
https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... /feel7.mp3

Unchained with my sound (beginning part) (one tube)
https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... dplexi.mp3

Posted: **Sat May 24, 2025 4:16 pm**

johnnybgoood wrote: ↑
Sat May 24, 2025 9:47 am

PLX wrote: ↑
Fri May 23, 2025 1:53 pm
edit: but I managed to find it on the Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... holic.com/
Thanks PLX!!!! Finding VHoholic's archived webpage is fantastic. This info could have been lost in the digital black hole of the web like a needle in a billion haystacks.

Ground Zero...

I've been reading the subject threads here since the 2000's and I never managed to land on VHoholic's test recordings. How crazy is that?

Went searching far and wide for the Brownsound only to come back to Metro and discover that the answer was hiding here in plain sight all along.

Here ends the journey. I am content.

Feel your love tonight(w/album)(one tube)
https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... /feel7.mp3

Unchained with my sound (beginning part) (one tube)
https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... dplexi.mp3

Yeah, that guy was kind of a "big deal" around here, back in 2003~2004.

But he proved his theory with clips, and laid it all out here (and on other forums).. Variac down into the 70VAC range, & pull 3 output tubes.

Posted: **Sat May 24, 2025 5:50 pm**

PLX just listened to your song. Cathode Ray posted a link over at AmpGarage to "No You" to shut down a naysayer writing, "I doubt it sounds very good." https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38028

I also listened to VHoholic on Soundcloud. His tone is pure Brownsound. https://www.soundclick.com/vhoholic/?songid=5238604

London Power's analysis of pulling tubes. https://londonpower.com/tube-amps-faq/#Tube-Pulling
If anyone knows anything about tube amps it's definitely the man from Thunder Bay.

"PULLING TUBES
Q: In a magazine Q-A, a player with a 100W amp wanted to pull tubes to reduce power, but the “expert” said this would cause a meltdown of the remaining tubes. Of course, it was suggested that the expert’s attenuator product was the preferred way to go. Is any of this true?
A: This is a person who should know better!
Removing tubes from a multi-tube fixed-bias output stage is never a problem. You can remove any number of tubes, and yes, that means you can take one tube out of a two-tube amp; one, two, or three out of a four tube stage, et cetera. This sounds heretical to techs stuck in the mire of convention, but it is something that has been known since tubes were invented.
The even-number tube extractions reduce power symmetrically. Neither the tubes nor the transformer will be damaged. Power will be reduced and so will frequency bandwidth – you will lose some bass and some treble. This is the point that switching the impedance selector to a less-than-load setting is supposed to correct, but it is completely subjective whether you should. The only ‘should’ of the matter, is do I like it this way, or do I like it that way?
In the uneven tube extractions, asymmetric power reduction occurs. Conventional thought says “the one tube on one side of the circuit will be trying to match the output of the two tubes on the other circuit half”. This is wrong. The single tube can only produce so much power, and that’s all it does. It doesn’t melt down. The transformer does not blow up.
So, what’s missing from conventional thought? It’s the realization that tubes are “self-limiting power governors”, which was stated in The Ultimate Tone (https://londonpower.com/electronics/tut/), and explored in more detail in (https://londonpower.com/electronics/tut2/) and (https://londonpower.com/electronics/tut/3) . (https://londonpower.com/electronics/tut/4) explores all of this in great detail. Our “expert” should get a copy.
In the end, you can pull tubes to reduce power, unless the amp is cathode biased – then you have to split the bias resistor. In any case, you do not have to worry about the impedance selector either."

Posted: **Sat May 24, 2025 7:27 pm**

johnnybgoood wrote: ↑
Sat May 24, 2025 5:50 pm
PLX just listened to your song. Cathode Ray posted a link over at AmpGarage to "No You" to shut down a naysayer writing, "I doubt it sounds very good." https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38028

That's my JCM800 with two 6CA7's pulled, variac'ed down to 80VAC in that clip (rhythm guitars). Had a lot of with with that riff !

Same amp with only one 6CA7 installed. 50kΩ mid pot, fat cap, NFB altered as well. Variac'ed way down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bof5r0NmkCI

Posted: **Tue May 27, 2025 11:03 am**

"No You" has some vibe PLX. Nice Rip Brother.

VHaholic was legend and so early nobody could grasp it. Me included. I've listened to the recorded interviews and was convinced Ed did not lie and was generally straight up. Including the comment on his car commentary saying, it was a capacitor from a car. Yet we see the Jose' load with spark plug reliefs from a CAR ignition. So maybe he told a story or two. . .

Here, its beyond a story, its intentional and even worse, here is why. . .

One of the most stand up guys around is Karl Sandoval, and he tells a story on his channel about his band opening up for VH at the Pasadena Convention Center. The scene is a sound check, dark. . .Mike is on stage testing his bass rig, Alex just ripping and Dave doing his famous mic check. Karl said Ed was in the back of his amp and Karl could hear BOXES of tubes being thrown around. The noise was total cringe. He was aware that glass and throwing boxes of glass tubes is a bad idea. Karl was like , " thats alot of tubes" . Then he was completely confused. . . Noise, , Ed Noodling. Boxes thrown with tubes in the mix. WTF friends.

Why, and for what purpose would a human throw boxes of tubes around behind their stage rig, while noodling in between, testing, jamming, in between ?

Thats the question. . .

Karl is a savy dude, a guitar player, in the game as long as us and he has no idea either. . .

I thinkg Ed was using the dark, or lack of light behind his rig to put together tubes that looked 'similar' in warmed up ' color ' and sounded 'right'.

No meter, no bullshit, sound good >>--> SEND IT !

Thats how picky and INSANE this deal was. No matched tubes in GROOVE TUBE packaging. A BOX of shit. Some maybe good, some bad on some day. . . etc.

So take that bag of apples and gold from Brother Sandoval, because his take is in my opinion the best so far, pre 1980.

Nobody can touch that. Except maybe. . .

So, remember Donn Landee ? , An Engineer who was DOCUMENTING HIS PERFECT SETTINGS AFTER THE ERUPTION MAGICAL RECORDING ? . . . In his Studio Pic from behind the console ? . . .

Now you explain to me . . . two cabs. I know, I want to make sure YOU got it. DONN is Genius ! ! !

Now Ted is too ?

BTW, the VHII PIC in the Sunset Sound studio II, fake recording set up, is proof of this possible deception. . .

Why in all hell would you show your magic rig to the world. . . wink, wink ?

Four tubes, three pre amp tubes. mystery pot, both speaker outs plugged in, ten cabs. . .

IN this experiment, to show four power tubes, three pre amp tubes in play. Deception City Baby.

And BTW, the OT is stock, not replaced in that pic. I thought it was for decades, until , I Had mine opened up on the top of my cab and took a look by chance, and a pic. Same exact dealio. My bad. Whats a few output impedes amongst friends ?

Apparently not alot at all with all the options going on. Its the hands, in any situation that came through !

However, that combo track I posted with Eruption room mic and tight mic is stunning, as is the Jamies Crying Dry Tracks, especially with volume amongst the band. Stunning mystery !

Posted: **Tue May 27, 2025 1:24 pm**

plexified wrote: ↑
Tue May 27, 2025 11:03 am
"No You" has some vibe PLX. Nice Rip Brother.

VHaholic was legend and so early nobody could grasp it. Me included. I've listened to the recorded interviews and was convinced Ed did not lie and was generally straight up. Including the comment on his car commentary saying, it was a capacitor from a car. Yet we see the Jose' load with spark plug reliefs from a CAR ignition. So maybe he told a story or two. . .

Here, its beyond a story, its intentional and even worse, here is why. . .

One of the most stand up guys around is Karl Sandoval, and he tells a story on his channel about his band opening up for VH at the Pasadena Convention Center. The scene is a sound check, dark. . .Mike is on stage testing his bass rig, Alex just ripping and Dave doing his famous mic check. Karl said Ed was in the back of his amp and Karl could hear BOXES of tubes being thrown around. The noise was total cringe. He was aware that glass and throwing boxes of glass tubes is a bad idea. Karl was like , " thats alot of tubes" . Then he was completely confused. . . Noise, , Ed Noodling. Boxes thrown with tubes in the mix. WTF friends.

Why, and for what purpose would a human throw boxes of tubes around behind their stage rig, while noodling in between, testing, jamming, in between ?

Thats the question. . .

Karl is a savy dude, a guitar player, in the game as long as us and he has no idea either. . .

I thinkg Ed was using the dark, or lack of light behind his rig to put together tubes that looked 'similar' in warmed up ' color ' and sounded 'right'.

No meter, no bullshit, sound good >>--> SEND IT !

Thats how picky and INSANE this deal was. No matched tubes in GROOVE TUBE packaging. A BOX of shit. Some maybe good, some bad on some day. . . etc.

So take that bag of apples and gold from Brother Sandoval, because his take is in my opinion the best so far, pre 1980.

Nobody can touch that. Except maybe. . .

So, remember Donn Landee ? , An Engineer who was DOCUMENTING HIS PERFECT SETTINGS AFTER THE ERUPTION MAGICAL RECORDING ? . . . In his Studio Pic from behind the console ? . . .

Now you explain to me . . . two cabs. I know, I want to make sure YOU got it. DONN is Genius ! ! !

Now Ted is too ?

BTW, the VHII PIC in the Sunset Sound studio II, fake recording set up, is proof of this possible deception. . .

Why in all hell would you show your magic rig to the world. . . wink, wink ?

Four tubes, three pre amp tubes. mystery pot, both speaker outs plugged in, ten cabs. . .

IN this experiment, to show four power tubes, three pre amp tubes in play. Deception City Baby.

And BTW, the OT is stock, not replaced in that pic. I thought it was for decades, until , I Had mine opened up on the top of my cab and took a look by chance, and a pic. Same exact dealio. My bad. Whats a few output impedes amongst friends ?

Apparently not alot at all with all the options going on. Its the hands, in any situation that came through !

However, that combo track I posted with Eruption room mic and tight mic is stunning, as is the Jamies Crying Dry Tracks, especially with volume amongst the band. Stunning mystery !

Laser beam accurate, as always Plexi

When you pull 2 or 3 output tubes and variac down, the amp is running at very low power.. so the risk of damaging transformers is greatly reduced.

Posted: **Tue Jun 03, 2025 6:40 pm**

PLX wrote: ↑
Fri May 23, 2025 1:53 pm
Thanks for nailing down that quote, and who said it.

For what it's worth.. member VHohilic from New Jersey was posting clips here 20 years ago where he was running one 6CA7 (a.k.a. 3 power tubes pulled) and it sounded glorious.

So.. nothing new here.

Unfortunately, his old clip hosting site www.vhoholic.com is no more.

edit: but I managed to find it on the Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20080922231 ... holic.com/

Didn't member "mr.twistyneck" also do this too? I know he did a bunch of other crazy things too.

Posted: **Tue Jun 03, 2025 8:24 pm**

Tazin wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 03, 2025 6:40 pm
Didn't member "mr.twistyneck" also do this too? I know he did a bunch of other crazy things too.

I don't recall TN doing this, but perhaps he did.

What I remember him doing was the "C-e-r-r-e-m Mod".. where you place a power resistor across pin 3 of the two inner power tubes.. an idea based on a conjunctive filter from the RCA radio handbook (minus the capacitor).

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