JTM45 voltage problems

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neikeel
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by neikeel » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:55 am

[quote="axe-victim"]I just finished a JTM45 using George's instructions and began measuring voltages (using a Fluke 112) and installing tubes. My measured voltages are high in some cases and non-existent in one case. Here's what I have:

V1 235v --- 1.4v 3.25v 3.25v 393v --- 1.36 3.25v
V2 231v --- 1.5v 3.25v 3.25v 399v 231v 0v 3.25v
v3 255v --- 32v 3.25v 3.25v 429v --- 32v 3.25v
V4
V5
V6 --- 101v --- 350v ---- 350v --- 100v
5.2v 0.36v

Not sure how the second line pin 5 reading was achieved :whistle:
Last edited by neikeel on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Neil

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axe-victim
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by axe-victim » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:34 pm

Here's the latest measurements.

Power - on
Standby - off

Pins 2&8 on the rectifier - 5.35VAC
366V on the Standby switch
-53V on pin 5 or V4&V5

Full on with 12ax7's and GZ34 installed.

V1.....243v.....---.....1.8v.....3.25v.....3.25v.....248v.....----......1.80v.....3.24v
V2.....202v.....---.....1.3v.....3.25v.....3.25v.....349v.....202v.....202v.....3.24v
V3.....277v.....---.....44v......3.25v.....3.25v.....256v.....----......43.2v.....3.25v
V4.....---.....3.26v...474v......472v......-53v......469v.....3.23v....----
V5.....---.....3.26v...480v......472v......-53v......468v.....3.23v....----
V6.....---.....5.26v....----......358v.......----.......358v.....5.26v

Is this more in line with expected voltages? Should I test with power tubes? (Golden Lion KTs)

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toner
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by toner » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:40 pm

That looks about right without power tubes. Go ahead and install them. Remember to connect a speaker load.

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axe-victim
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by axe-victim » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:15 pm

I have a motorboat! Ugh! I tried the 5.6k resistor fix and same noise.

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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by Reeltarded » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:13 am

5.6k fix? You mean resistors directly on the output grids? Those are supposed to be there, and they are for the opposite end of the eq spectrum; radio band interference.

Motoring says something earlier in the circuit is passing a lot of lowend. Pull V1 and turn the amp on. Did it totally go away, or do you hear just a hint in the background still?

Getting closer. One more trick and you'll be just about happy!
not kicking the dead horse

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toner
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by toner » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:45 am

You may have the OT primaries reversed. It's not usually described as motorboating though. Lift one end of the NFB resistor. If the noise is gone, swap the pin 3 wires on the power tubes and re-connect the NFB.

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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by axe-victim » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:20 pm

Pulling V1 did nothing to the sound, so on to the next response.

I pulled one end of the NFB resistor and the loud noise went to a very low hiss! I then swapped the wires on pin3 of V4 & V5 and reconnected the resistor and that fixed the problem! Great advice!

As far as the 5.6K resistors, I installed them on the grids (pin 5). I didn't see anything in the instructions about doing that, nor is there any place for them on the board. Maybe I have an old version of the build. Anyway, I wanted to see if they had any effect on this build, so I removed them and powered up. Sounds them same as with them in place. What's the value of putting them back?

Happy again!

Will be biasing later this evening.

Now to cut some wood. I'm thinking of Korina with a dark wood (mahogany, purple heart, or ???) inlaid dovetail.

Had some spare time and biased the amp. Plugged in and played. Not bad sound considering neither the amp nor the speaker is broke in. About how long for break in?

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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by Reeltarded » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:26 pm

Good call toner!

Awesome man! The 5.6ks are missing from the instructions by a mistake only. They go right on the grids, right there at the tube. You are good.

Awesome! I love a happy amp and happy amp guys. This stuff is fun, and exciting!
not kicking the dead horse

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toner
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by toner » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:33 pm

Glad you found the problem! It's very common in new builds so I threw it out there just in case. :wink:

The 5k6 resistors are very good to have. They are called "grid stoppers". They will have no negative effects on the tone/feel of the amp. In fact you can go much larger in value before noticing any high frequency loss. Basically, they interact with the internal "miller capacitance" of the tube to form a low-pass filter which rolls off very high frequencies above the audible range (radio, etc.). This can help prevent oscillation and red-plating tubes among other things. It's best to put them right on the tube socket like you had.

Regarding break-in time, the amp (mainly signal capacitors and OT) will gradually settle in within about 20 hours of use. You may notice it becoming "clearer", "tighter", more "musical" for lack of better terms. Speakers can take longer, depending on what you have and how loud you play.

I normally wouldn't post a quote from another site but Aiken's site ( http://www.aikenamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) currently has it's links messed up. Below is a quote from him about grid stoppers, which is very informative.

__________________________________
From aikenamps.com:

Grid Resistors - Why Are They Used?

General

If you look at the schematic of a typical guitar amplifier, you will notice that there is a resistor in series with the grid of the first tube, usually around 68K or so, and there is also a resistor in series with the grid of the power tubes, usually 1.5K or 5.6K, and you may occasionally see very large value resistors, such as 470K or greater, in series with tube grids in high-gain preamps. Some amplifiers have no such grid resistors, and occasionally people will recommend removing them to supposedly "increase the gain" of that stage. What is the purpose of these resistors, and should you remove them?

Reasons for the resistors

These resistors, which are commonly called "grid stoppers", are not put on the control grid of the tube for signal level attenuation purposes; rather, they act as a very high frequency low-pass filter in conjunction with the input capacitance of the triode (which is the sum of the grid-to-cathode capacitance and the Miller capacitance, and can get as high as 100pF or more). In the normal operating mode of a vacuum tube, the grid is biased negatively with respect to the cathode. Because of this, there is no current flow into the grid element, and it looks like a very high impedance circuit node. This means that there can be little or no midband attenuation of the input signal, because the voltage divider formed by the series resistor and the high input impedance of the tube is very small. For all practical purposes, the attenuation is negligible at midband, so there is no "increase in gain" by removing these resistors. Attenuation only occurs at the higher frequencies, above the frequency breakpoint caused by the series resistance and the input capacitance.

The grid resistor accomplishes the following things:

It helps prevent high frequency parasitic oscillation in the tube itself
It helps prevent radio frequencies from getting into the input stage, where they can be rectified and lowpass filtered (AM detection) and become audible at the amplifier output
It can limit grid current when the tube is driven into the positive grid region, which helps in preventing "blocking" distortion

Where to put the resistors

In order to take advantage of the parasitic suppression benefits of these grid resistors, they must be placed as close as possible to the socket pin of the tube, preferably soldered directly to the pin with a very short lead. The resistor should be placed after the grid-to-ground resistor (usually 1 Meg or so), to avoid attenuation and to keep the signal path short. If the resistor is connected in series with the input jack and before the 1 Meg grid resistor, there is a small loss of the input signal, although, in most cases the attenuation is not enough to be concerned with (0.94 times for a 68K grid stopper and a 1 Meg grid resistor), and in amplifiers with a high and low level input, the grid stoppers also serve as attenuators. When designing an amplifier, it is better to use separate resistors for input attenuation purposes in order to be able to locate the grid stoppers as close to the input grid pins as possible, rather than mounting them on the input jacks.

How large should they be?

The grid resistor value typically varies from as low as 1.5K to as high as 470K.

Most output stages use relatively small grid resistors, such as the 1.5K seen on the grids of 6L6 tubes in most Fenders, and the 5.6K seen on the grids of EL34 tubes in most Marshalls. In general, the grid resistor at the grid of the power tubes can be as high as 56K to 100K before any noticeable loss of high frequencies occurs. Higher values can help in reducing "blocking" distortion as noted above, and can also take some of the "edge" off of an overly brittle sounding output stage. If the resistor value is made too low, it may not be enough to prevent parasitic oscillations, and the amplifier may exhibit instability in the higher frequency range. This may or may not be audible. Symptoms of oscillations include: high-pitched "squeal", glowing plates at "safe" bias currents, harsh treble response, lack of power, undesirable overtones, and unusual frequency response which makes the amp sound funny. Note that power tubes have a specification for maximum resistance that can be in series with the grid terminal before the tube becomes unstable due to grid current. The maximum allowable resistance is larger in cathode biased circuits than it is in fixed bias circuits because the cathode bias provides some "self-limiting" protection against bias runaway. The total resistance is the sum of the series grid resistor and the bias feed or "grid-to-ground" resistances, so if the max spec is 300K, for example, and there is a 220K bias feed resistor, the largest grid resistance that can safely be used is 80K. Of course, in practice, tubes should not be run that close to the edge of their specifications, to insure reliability.

The grid resistor on the preamp stages typically ranges from 0 to 68K, although very large values, such as 470K, are sometimes used in high-gain preamps to shape the frequency response and prevent "blocking" distortion in the preamp section under heavy overdrive conditions. The Miller capacitance of a typical 12AX7 is around 151pF, so the upper frequency response -3dB cutoff point of a stage using a 68K grid resistor is around 15.5kHz. The frequency response drops to around 2.2kHz if a 470k grid resistor is used. This "free" response rolloff can be used to tame the "buzziness" of high-gain preamp stages without having to add additional rolloff capacitors. Perhaps the most important grid resistor is the one that goes to the grid of the very first stage, right after the input jack. This resistor is the one that prevents oscillations and pickup of radio stations and other noise due to long or poorly-shielded cables. It is not usually a good idea to eliminate this resistor. Ideally, it should be soldered directly to the grid pins of the socket, with very short leads.

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toner
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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by toner » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:40 pm

Also, the bias will change as the tubes break in. It's a good idea to check it after about 5 hours of use and adjust if necessary. After that, it will usually hold steady.

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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by axe-victim » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:52 pm

I certainly appreciate all the help and advice everyone has given me. And I'm glad there is a place I can turn to for help. I realize now that I have a lot to brush up on and learn for future builds and repairs. Any advice with that?

I'm going to hook this head up to some broken in speakers to break in the electronics. The speaker I tested it with is a Jensen Neo. I never used one before as I am partial to EV Black Shadows. I wanted to try the neo due to its light weight. I'm not as young as I think I am any more and those Black Shadows can be back breakers! Beside playing through the neo to break it in, is there another way to do it that doesn't require as much of MY time as I think it will take? How do the manufacturers that do it, do it?

I will fire it up tomorrow and have some fun. Try some pedals with it. Try different guitars.

When I get the box built, I'll post some pics.

Thanks again!
Art

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Re: JTM45 voltage problems

Post by fixer2 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:49 pm

Did you finish it did you get it going ,like to hear it ,play something .

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