Tone Debate

Country Boy Shane · Post by **Country Boy Shane** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:48 am

rjgtr wrote:The thing I hate about Pro Tools is that you can fix anything. Unfortunately, the standard practice of correcting drums so every hit is spot on, cutting and pasting perfect choruses of guitar and BG vocals and pitch correcting everything sucks the life out of music. The other thing I hate in much modern music is the Louder than loud compression style, where all dynamics are eliminated so "my mix is louder than your mix". What you get is a reasonable faccimile of a performance, but not a real performance.

It really makes me appreciate the Beatles. Now thse guys could perform music! If you've ever heard the old Live at the Hollywood Bowl live CD, these guys play in tune and sing in tune - all without floor monitors!

All is not lost. There's some great stuff out now, but you really have to dig for it.

We must start a ban on Pro Tools!

white room · Post by **white room** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:13 am

I totally agree with Jon's post.

I went to my local music store/hangout a few weeks ago and there where 3 kids ( kids to me, 18ish or so) and they all where playing through PODS and modeling amps at different areas on the floor AT THE SAME TIME NO LESS!!! and I just shook my head but I tried to be open minded about it considering the information and sounds from the new bands they have to go on nowadays but I really wanted to puke.

I thought I would do a little crusading in the spirit of brotherhood and asked the owner ( who I have known for years) if I could try one of the LPs hanging on the wall and he said " sure, do you want to run it through a SLP" (as if he had to ask) so he set me up in the isolation booth and let me go and I started ripping into some blues licks and Led Zepplin stuff.

The next thing I noticed were those same kids looking through the window in the door with their jaws on the floor, not from my playing ( I don't think) but from the sound of a cranked Marshall.

I must say it felt good to show them what a real amp is all about and what can be done with it. I use to hear the comments that the "straight" Marshalls are not versatile enough. I say BS to that one. Yes, a cranked Marshall will leave you butt bare to the world so you need to be fit and in good shape playing-wise. That's what I like about them, they keep you on your toes as well as sound great.

If I had to put into words the cacophony I heard that day I guess it could be akin to a steamroller running over broken glass on a sheet of plate steel.

Country Boy Shane · Post by **Country Boy Shane** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:40 pm

white room wrote:I totally agree with Jon's post.

I went to my local music store/hangout a few weeks ago and there where 3 kids ( kids to me, 18ish or so) and they all where playing through PODS and modeling amps at different areas on the floor AT THE SAME TIME NO LESS!!! and I just shook my head but I tried to be open about it considering the information and sounds from the new bands they have to go on nowadays but I really wanted to puke.

I thought I would do a little crusading in the spirit of brotherhood and asked the owner ( who I have known for years) if I could try one of the LPs hanging on the wall and he said " sure, do you want to run it through a SLP" (as if he had to ask) so he set me up in the isolation booth and let me go and I started ripping into some blues licks and Led Zepplin stuff.

The next thing I noticed were those same kids looking through the window in the door with their jaws on the floor, not from my playing ( I don't think) but from the sound of a cranked Marshall.

I must say it felt good to show them what a real amp is all about and what can be done with it. I use to hear the comments that the "straight" Marshalls are not versatile enough. I say BS to that one. Yes, a cranked Marshall will leave you butt bare to the world so you need to be fit and in good shape playing-wise. That's what I like about them, they keep you on your toes as well as sound great.

Great story man! I remember at this Battle of the Bands in this skating arena around 2000. My band just had this massive blues/rock/funk jam with my SuperLead cranked. I didn't own a THD Hotplate at the time so it was bloody loud! The other guitarists were just in awe of the tone and the sheer volume. We got a lot of compliments about our sound and sheer BAWLZ. These kids that were right in front of the stage had no choice but to back away because their faces would be melted off! That's one day i surely will remember.

white room · Post by **white room** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:50 pm

I like that

that must have been heaven.

I sure would have loved to have seen the looks on their faces when that hit them!

" Hey kid, you ever had a noise hangover before? NO!? Well check this out!"

Necrovore · Post by **Necrovore** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:33 pm

white room wrote:" Hey kid, you ever had a noise hangover before? NO!? Well check this out!"

I love that saying. That is so spot on. I love cranking Marshall's in front of unexpecting listeners. The look on their faces reminds me of watching astronauts when they are in that centrifical machine where they spin around the wall to see how many g's they can stand.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:41 am

myker · Post by **myker** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:04 pm

tone is subjuctive but, the fact that is not subjective is that these SS amplifiers have a complete lack of tone. period! the bottom line is that all solid state amplifiers sound like shit and are useless. yes, I said it! every fucking last one of them! i dont care about how people say... but my so and so SS amp doesn't sound that bad, but you are kidding yourself, it sounds bad! even if it did sound good, you cant use it in a live situation or a studio situation because all the other instruments will drown it out. i say this from the prospective of a studio engineer with eight years of experience and a guitar player that has played extensively in many, many live rooms. as well as from a live sound engineers experience too. in the studio, solid state gets lost in the mix, which is a good thing because they sound like crap. the SS clean channel is least shitty sounding, but does it remotely compare to a tube clean sound?? Never!
on the stage you can blast a 200 watt SS amp away with an 18 watt marshall!
kids these days have a complete lack of good amplifiers to choose from, all the amps that sound good are out of their price range, so they dont even try them. they merely want to have that ultra gain sound that they are hearing on modern recordings. which can easily be achieved with SS amps. SS=lots of gain, shitty odd-order harmonic filled garbage. the amps that actually have tone and alot of gain and tubes such as a soldano or a bogner cost five times as much. Have you even noticed the extreme ear fatigue you get after playing a SS amp for twenty miutes or so? even at extremely low volumes? thats because the harsh harmonics are shredding your eardrums apart.
and pro-tools?? let me tell you, there are very, i mean very few drummers who actually hit consistently hard enough to sound good on a recording without tons of compression and pro-tools fudging. the reason we keep telling you to hit harder is because most drummers hit way way to soft. or they start off hard and gradually hit softer and softer (this is not "dynamics"), i am all about capturing a great performance on tape, but few drummers are capable of delivering one worthy. i can't throw two mics in a room and capture a perfomance like Bonhams when the drummer kicks his bass like a little girl, smashes the hell out his piccolo snare, hits his first tom hard as hell, then taps his floor tom. thats why people use triggers and drum machines these days. the producer needs to put out a record that can hang with the rest of the cd's out there, its gotta be just as loud, or louder! the drums gotta be pounding, the guitar has to be shredding. thats the sad truth is that sales drive music!
Some of the best and most dynamic music you can hear is the raw mix of a song, before it goes off to be squashed at the mastering studio!!
have you ever noticed how easy it is to get a good guitar sound by just throwing a shure in front of your marshall? simplicity at its finest!
sorry for ranting! i have wanted to say that for a long time.
mike

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:53 pm

I couldn't have said that better!!! The even order harmonics generated by saturated tubes cut through WAY better than odd order harmonics delivered by saturated transistors.

And the fact that these kids want everything cheap...you get what you pay for, unless you get lucky enough to buy a vintage Marshall from some dumbass that don't know what it's really worth, which rarely happens.

Moral of the story: Cheap tone ain't good and good tone ain't cheap!!!

Jon

Country Boy Shane · Post by **Country Boy Shane** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:20 pm

I agree that all SS amps sound like sheer garbage. It's like they were doomed to sound shitty and go to amp hell the moment they were rolled down the assembly line over in Taiwan.

5150loveeddie · Post by **5150loveeddie** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:59 pm

John "BONZO" Bonham is the reference in rock and roll drumming. This guy was just the best "fell" and "loud" drummer out there!!!

Country Boy Shane · Post by **Country Boy Shane** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:57 pm

5150loveeddie wrote:John "BONZO" Bonham is the reference in rock and roll drumming. This guy was just the best "fell" and "loud" drummer out there!!!

I AM 100% WITH YOU ON THAT! The best that ever was. Screw the Neil Peart stuff, because i'll take Bonzo any day. He was the most explosive and boombastic drummer that ever lived.

Necrovore · Post by **Necrovore** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:55 pm

Country Boy Shane wrote:I agree that all SS amps sound like sheer garbage. It's like they were doomed to sound shitty and go to amp hell the moment they were rolled down the assembly line over in Taiwan.

I have to disagree with you on that argument for only one SS amp. The Roland JC-120. These are the only SS amps that I have use for.

johniss0001 · Post by **johniss0001** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:11 am

You guys are biased to valve amps are better than solid state which they are but I have a vintage solid state H/H british made amplifier from the 1970s. I run it through 2 vintage 2x12 pa cabs with celestion G12M Black backs. The cleans sound FUCKIN AMAZINNG!!!
I don't have the money now for a 100 watt tube plexi kit as us kids don't have a lot of money but I do have a MARSHALL JMP SUPER BASS SIGNED BY JIM MARSHALL.
I use solid state when I am gigging because I don't have a suitable cab for my super bass or a power brake tht is how i am gonna build my own 4x12.
I think digital sux when bands are playing live they use zoom moddelers and things which i have and nvr use ny more it is really depressing. I have a new tech 21 double drive pedal which is 2 years old but it is an analogue circuit it produces a very convincing plexi sound for what it is but i know it won't beat the original.
The tech 21 is the newest piece of gear as I have because a lot of my gear was made in the 70's i kinda get the sound i want with my 1970 Gibson Sg Pro.
Once i have enough money i am gonna get a plexi kit and i will have the sound of the gods!!

Country Boy Shane · Post by **Country Boy Shane** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:06 pm

Necrovore wrote:
Country Boy Shane wrote:I agree that all SS amps sound like sheer garbage. It's like they were doomed to sound shitty and go to amp hell the moment they were rolled down the assembly line over in Taiwan.
I have to disagree with you on that argument for only one SS amp. The Roland JC-120. These are the only SS amps that I have use for.

Okay, maybe a Roland. But come on, if you're gonna pay that much it's worth it to invest a LITTLE more money for tube. Gees.

Necrovore · Post by **Necrovore** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:47 pm

They arent that much for used ones. There are two in a store downtown where they ae asking under $400 for both. Granted both look like ass, but if you need that clean un-altered tone for certain guitar work the Roland is the way to go. I DO hear what you guys are saying though. the 18 watter was mentioned somewhere above. Don't those things command a higher price than an old SL head nowadays? I wouldnt mind checking one out sometime but down here they are about as rare as walking into God on the sidewalk and him declaring you king for a day. Might check up in Austin though.