Metropoulos Forum

Hey guys,

I wuz reading thru an old guitar mag a few days ago that had some of Randy Rhoads' lessons to his guitar students (good reading), and it got me thinking about how patterns repeat in playing diatonic (Major/nat. minor) scales.

Well, I went investigating and found out with just a little bit of scribbling on a piece of notebook paper that there is only one cyclic pattern!!!!

This comes off using the 3-note-per-string method of playing maj./nat. minor scales. Look at the tab example of playing the G Major/E minor scale starting on the 2nd fret below:

Frets:
X1 2 3 45 67
E - - 1 - 2 - 4
B - - 1 - 2 - 4
G - 1 - 34
D - 1 - 34
A - 1 2 -4
E - 1 2 -4

This typical approach to playing this scale covers 2 octaves and on up to the B note on fret 7 of the 1st string.

Now look at what happens if you put an imaginary A string (I) after the high E or 1st string:

Frets
X1 2 3 45 67
I - - 1 - 2 - 4
E - - 1 - 2 - 4
B - - 1 - 2 - 4
G - 1 - 34
D - 1 - 34
A - 1 2 -4
E - 1 2 -4

You still travel 2 octaves, but you now end three notes higher than the B on E. The next note? F# (the first note of the pattern when you started on fret 2 of string 6)!!!!!

So what does all this mean???? If you use the 3-note-per-string method of playing these scales, there's only seven patterns to learn with your left hand to play ALL of the Major/nat. minor scale forms!!!!!!

Two sequences of 124, two sequences of 134, and three sequences of the 4 fret stretch (or 5 fret stretch depending on how you look at it, on the second string these notes would be 1st finger/3rd fret D, 2nd finger/5th fret E, and 4th finger/7th fret F# also known as two whole steps).

They then repeat for all the other notes you could start on of the scale (with the only caveat being they start different places in the sequences and the jump in one fret starting at the second string) !!!!

So if you started with 1st finger/3rd fret G on the sixth string, it would be two 4 fret stretches, two 124s followed by two 134s.

If you start on the 5th fret A on the sixth string, it would be one 134, three 4 fret stretches and two 124s.

7th fret B on sixth string: one 124, two 134s followed by the three four fret stretches!!!!!

It works every time!!!!!!!

hmmm...? I guess I'm the one that's cornfused.

For now... Just stick to the idea that there is a formula and stick to it. It applies for every key.
We'll use frets as steps like keys of a piano...

Note: Forget the guitar as it sometimes can be your worst enemy. Guitar bad... pencil paper gooood!
Get or make a full scale neck on paper...
Try this...
The "phone number" for all Root Major Keys is 221-2221. All this on one string.

From G on the 6th String 3rd Fret write out this formula like this:
The Root is your starting point. Apply the phone number but keeping the intervals in your head as you write out the sequence of numbers like so.
221-2221
So, playing from G
2 frets up. Then your at A.
2 frets up B.
1 fret up C
2 frets up D
2 frets up E
2 frets up F#
1 fret G = octave

Now we're getting somewhere.
It is here where it all comes together...
Instead of writing the letters down, pencil in numbers !
G=1
A=2
B=3
C=4
D=5
E=6
F#=7
G=1

At first concentrating that sequence on the 6th string until you fill in all frets respectively.
Then, transfer that number(note) to the 5th string and so forth. WHAM !
Now you have a mathematical approach to the fret board in it's easiest and most simplistic form.

When I was a yute in school I did very poorly with "chemistry" Can you imagine the faces I made if a teacher was shouting out chords.
example to how this sounds...deteriorating verbalization I callz it... Goes somethin' like dis :
b minor 7th with a diminished 9th majorly augmenting the fifth with a triple Lindy and a double half gainer quarter stepping your way down the yellow brick road......... What da' fuck izzat?
I'm an A student in math and can count money noooo problem... But Maaaaaaan ! Is it recess yet?


Maybe Bunnest or rockstah can give their .2
Some questions always arise like why does it have to be a minor chord there? Gmaj7 Amin7 Bmin7 Cmaj7 D7 Emin7 F#min7b5
(Yup ! You guessed it.... because there's a Fucking formula for that too !)
Or... Why is that sharp in the scale ? (notice you just found out that there is one sharp in the key of G and guess what? you even know what note it is ! Good boy.... fetch the stick.... )

This is a small offering to such a vast area. I hope this helped you in your "lead" ideas.
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Sorry the first post was confusing, I was just using tab because I thought it would be more accessible to everybody.

Gmaj7 Amin7 Bmin7 Cmaj7 D7 Emin7 F#min7b5

1. Any chord symbol is always considered Major unless stated otherwise.

2. The 7th is always minor unless otherwise stated (or 2 frets/1 whole step away from the tonic octave note unless 2 octave displacement is done which is common to guitar).

That's where the confusion usually happens, as sometimes they're referring to the 7th and other times referring to the fundamental chord itself:

In Gmaj7, the maj is referring to the 7th, not the fundamental chord triad because of 1. above (maj7 is one fret away from the octave of the tonic root note of the chord, aka the leading tone). Since chords are always Major unless stated otherwise, it would be redundant to specify that the chord is a Major chord.

In Amin7, the min is referring to the fundamental chord triad (because of 2. above). Since 7ths are always minor unless otherwise specified, it also would likewise be redundant to specify that the 7th is minor).

Minor chords are so named because the 3rd in the chord is 3 frets (or a whole step and a half step) from the root/tonic (which also many times may be displaced an octave in guitar chords such as an A minor where the C happens on string 2 instead of string 5, 3rd fret).

Major chords have a 3rd that is 4 frets or 2 whole steps away from the root/tonic of the chord: an A chord has C# instead of C.

b5 (flat fifth) is where the fifth is one fret lower than usual: play the 2 string A5 chord with your finger on fret one of string 4 instead of the usual fret 2. In an augmented fifth the finger would be one fret higher than usual (on the 3rd fret of string four instead of fret 2).

Gmaj7: G major chord with a F# for the 7th (or a Major 7th)
Amin7: A minor chord with G for the 7th
Bmin7: B minor chord with A for the 7th
Cmaj7: C Major chord with B for the 7th (or a Major 7th)
D7: D chord with C for the 7th
Emin7: E minor chord with D for the 7th
F#min7b5: F# minor with E for the 7th, and C (instead of C#) for the 5th

I hope this clears up the sometimes rather confusing chord symbol rules that are commonly used.

I see your trying to figure out what makes a minor a Minor. I promise I will keep it simple and spaced out for comprehension puposes...

EVERYTHING is in relation to the Key of C that being the 1 with no sharps & flats.

A minor "interval" is 1 fret on the guitar & 1 key on a piano.
A chord needs 3 notes to be considered a chord and if it has a Root, a Third,and a Fifth.(eg. 1-3-5/C-E-G)
What makes it minor is the flat third 1,b3,5/C,Eb,G

Again on a piece of paper draw out a graph with 7 horizontal lines and 13 vertical lines.
It should look exactly like a 7 string guitar neck with 13 frets.

On the top line write out the Major scale formula
as if you were to play it on the neck starting on the first fret
but,changing the note letters to numbers.

Underneath that on the next line
start out with the 2nd note of the major scale and keep the sequence the same (see example)
until you have landed on the octave.
Take the 3rd note and do the same until you've done all 7 notes.
It should look kind of like this:

( 221 - 2221 )
1-2-34-5-6-71
2-34-5-6-71-2
34-5-6-71-2-3
4-5-6-71-2-34
5-6-71-2-34-5
6-71-2-34-5-6
71-2-34-5-6-7

Now compare each scale to the #1 scale (Note: Also callled The Modes.)

Lets compare the 5th...

1-2-34-5-6-71
5-6-71-2-34-5

The 1 & 5 (on top and underneath each other) are the same since they will always represent the root note....
next, look at the 2 and the 6
They look the same.
3&7 same
4&1 same
5&2 same
6&3 same
The 4 in relation is not the same as the 7.
It does not line up and appears flat as you would see it on your drawing as the better example.
The Fifth scale is almost the same as the First with the exception of the 7th last note which is flat.
It still has an unaltered 3rd note which keeps it's identity as a Major
and still has the 5th as well.
With the 7th note being flat
it will sound predominant in the scale when played
thus making it a Dominant which is still Major
(Note that the fifth scale has 1 flat. Translating that would be 123456 b7 )

How 'bout the 6th scale

1-2-34-5-6-71
6-71-2-34-5-6

1&6 same
2&7 same
The 1 is flat from where the 3 lines up.
This automatically makes it a minor type scale. (because the 3rd note is flat)
4&2 same
5&3 same
The 4 is flat of the 6th
As well as the 5 is flat of the 7
It should make sense why the A is an Aminor in the key of C.
(again in translation that would be 12 b3 45 b6 b7. The 6th scale has 3 flats)

When your done writing out all 7 scales like this you'll find out another formula.
The identities of each scale.
Your findings should read
1 Maj
2 min
3 min
4 Maj
5 Maj/Dom7th
6 min
7 is diminished because its the only scale having a flat 5

Now you have "Chord Melody" and can compose any key into a Killer song !
It's a no Brainer...
C Maj
D min
E nim
F Maj
G Maj/Dom7th
A min
B dim
It's impossible to make a mistake in picking a wrong chord !


There you have it !
Now go ahead and cut a Top 40 hit with that MetroBuild !

Jimmie K

Thanks for the breakdown Jimi.

I've known those for awhile now as I'm one of those cats that ended up breaking down and going the college route for classical guitar digging Randy Rhoads as much as I do.

I'm really digging messing around with the diminished or octatonic scale here lately. This symmetrical scale has 8 notes in it, and then the octave!!!!

It goes like this:

1-23-45-67-89
A-BC-DEb-FF#-G#A

or you can also start with the half step/minor second in between the first two notes as well:

12-34-56-78-9
ABb-CDb-D#E-F#G-A

The whole tone scale is also alot of fun. Another symmetrical scale made up of all whole steps (all notes are 2 frets apart) and only 7 notes per octave.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7
A-B-C#-D#-F-G-A

Cool stuff!!!!

I still think of guitar in terms of music theory.

Like the names of the intervals. Major 3rd, minor 2nd, Major 6th. perfect 4th, perfect 5th, Major 7th, minor 7th, ect.

So for a major scale, from your starting note:C

up a major 2nd to D
up a major 2nd to E
up a minor 2nd to F
up a major 2nd to G
up a major 2nd to A
up a major 2nd to B

up a minor 2nd to C.

Intervals:

C up to E = Major 3rd
C up to Eb = minor 3rd

C up to B = Major 7th
B up to C = minor 2nd

C up to A = major 6th (I think..)
A to C = minor 3rd

Also a handy way to figure these intervals out is to reverse them:

The opposite of a 3rd is a 6th.
The opposite of a 7th is a 2nd.

For 5ths and 4ths is kinda weird.

C up to F = perfect 4th
F up to C = perfect 5th

blfrd wrote:I still think of guitar in terms of music theory.

Like the names of the intervals. Major 3rd, minor 2nd, Major 6th. perfect 4th, perfect 5th, Major 7th, minor 7th, ect.

So for a major scale, from your starting note:C

up a major 2nd to D
up a major 2nd to E
up a minor 2nd to F
up a major 2nd to G
up a major 2nd to A
up a major 2nd to B

up a minor 2nd to C.

Intervals:

C up to E = Major 3rd
C up to Eb = minor 3rd

C up to B = Major 7th
B up to C = minor 2nd

C up to A = major 6th (I think..)
A to C = minor 3rd

Also a handy way to figure these intervals out is to reverse them:

The opposite of a 3rd is a 6th.
The opposite of a 7th is a 2nd.

For 5ths and 4ths is kinda weird.

C up to F = perfect 4th
F up to C = perfect 5th

I do as well mostly, is hard to think like this on my feet (in the middle of an improvised lead) though, so I just think about the patterns instead and it seems like I do not get mentally stuck/behind nearly as often.

+1

first, i see shapes.
secondarily, i relate the positions in the shapes to intervals (relative to the root).
third, i relate the physical spot on the neck to a the note (A,B,C# etc...)

so, for me the shapes are the launching point - the rest follows.

interesting how different people approach it.

this why i recommend first off , without any thought of what you are going to be doing with them or how they work in theory,learn the 7 major scale patterns and 5 pent scales. they should be known like the back of your hand. after that its alot easier to learn their application. so learn the 12 patterns!

Mark

,learn the 7 major scale patterns and 5 pent scales.

+1000

Myself, I then conected these patterns together, and practiced them until I could see them as two giant patterns that stretch 12 frets. the pentatonic sits inside the full major/minor pattern.
That way I can fluidly change between the two while improvising.
Even though the pentatonic notes are all in the major pattern, I find that I play differently if I'm thinking one pattern or another. if that makes any sense

Also any combination of three notes or more(regardless of how disonant or pleasing), as long as they dont leave the pattern, is technically a chord, in the key you are playing in.

I see it as a creative framework/pattern to dance around on.





On a side note, Hey Rockstah, what year did you attend git?
I was ther 86-87, I had the pleasure of taking some classes from and shooting the shit with Howard Roberts, the coolest, most layed back experienced/guitarist/teacher I've ever met.
A big influence on my attitudes toward improvising, and trying to let go while you play.

bingo - u got it man!

7 is diminished because its the only scale having a flat 5

the devil note!!

you know what's cool is play the flat 5th of the scale as the bass note of an inverted II major 7th chord - example: key of E, play Bb as the bass note of F#7. it's evil and happy all at the same time... it's evil in disguise...

flat 5 is the blue note. devils intervel indeed.
7th mode is really minor 7b5 or half diminished( locrian )
.a diminished chord has double flat 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7.

you know what's cool is play the flat 5th of the scale as the bass note of an inverted II 7th (major) chord - example: chord progression in the key of E, play Bb as the bass note of F#7. it's evil and happy all at the same time... it's evil in disguise...

i stepped on my own post - oops.

rockstah wrote:flat 5 is the blue note. devils intervel indeed.
7th mode is really minor 7b5 or half diminished( locrian )
.a diminished chord has double flat 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7.

double flat 7 = 6th that's weird... so using C as the 'first' mode, the 7th mode starts with B and the 7th note in that mode would be A - that's not double flat. confusion ensues... what am i not getting?