Metropoulos Forum

I have been mulling over this topic recently and every time I think of another guitar or amp, which thinking is all I am doing .
What is to become of our obsession, hobby, or what have you, for a better word, guitar and amp collecting?
Will it die out with the last generation who really assess such value as $500,000.00 for a '59 Les Paul or $7K for a Marshall amp, ect.?
I often have felt after having really great vintage pieces go through my hands, that it is better to loved and have lost, than to not loved at all.
In so many words it is ok to have only the T shirt left after these experiences.
As we pass on things, belongings, become less important, yet they have great meaning to us while we are alive on Earth.
Look at Jimi Hendrix, had many, many guitars, was not apparently sentimental about any of them, with the possible exception of his black Stratocaster he played towards the end of his life and is the last guitar he is pictured playing and in his hands.
They were tools to him as a master craftsman, yet things weren't really vintage then, but still, this culture of burst worship and general hoarding of all the good stuff by those who were either smart and thinking ahead or lucky or both, is somewhat alien to me.
If you use something valuable, then it is worth having, not being able to use it, seems to make it a painting or antique, if you will.
I recently read in Vintage Guitar of a metal guitarist, who was advised by the Burst Boys at GC Hollywood to buy 'investment pieces' and he commented how his investment has increased, is all well and good.
Somehow I kind of have always rebelled against this sort of thinking.
I chose to sell my killer all original 1954 LP Junior over a rebuilt '52/'56 Goldtop conversion, for sentimental reasons, as my close luthier friend had sold me the Goldtop and it meant more to me at the time, sold the Junior for only a few hundred more than I had paid for it, in 1997.
Then last year it went to the 2nd owner after me for $17.5K!
Do I regret it, no! But it makes you think where will all this end, people have original '52 Goldtops, which are virtually unplayable, just for the investment.Having done the rounds on the vintage guitar circuit in the mid nineties, it opened my eyes a lot to what was going on.
It mostly makes me angry and resentful about the state of things and yes it is great to have rare valuable stuff, but who is assessing the value to these things, surely not market demand?
Now that Wall Street is hip to all the investment profit to be made in vintage guitars and somewhat amps, it has become another cigar room leather chaired brandy sniffing activity, have a vintage guitar, along side the trophy wife !
The Heritage guitar closing recently inspired me to genuflect upon the state of the market today.
The investment focus, is increasingly the thrust of magazines such as Vintage Guitar, ect.
It was suggested that the Heritage craftsmen should have passed down their skills to the next generation, but I think they have their reasons why not.
I have met Tom Murphy in 1994 and Edwin Wilson, who now heads the Custom shop at Gibson, they had a vision to change things to how they were, given the 'Henry' era of things there,yet where are the true craftsmen who just can't be afforded these days, there is no glamour or quick profit in true craftsmanship any more.
If anathema organisations such as VH1, want to 'save the music', they should put money into luthier schools and those who actually build instruments, than trying to get this computer orientated next generation to actually read about something in a book, or practice an instrument with effort.
I don't want to sound like Mr. Wilson, but as I get older, it is more apparent to me, especially as I take care of our past war veterans, that people seem to really not care anymore.
On the one hand, it is great to have all this technical wizardry of the internet, you wouldn't be reading these words if not for that, but it seems that in a disposable society, human values are also disposable, somewhat.
Where am I rambling with this, I am trying more to really enjoy what I have, and not always look to what I could have, or GAS, which I don't get, for practical reasons!
What do you all think, am I off track, do you wonder where this is all going to end up, should we just hang on and let it ride, enjoying the moment for now?
I am trying to strike a balance all through my life and guitar equipment, for all my adult llife, something I revered, I now am questioning somewhat.

Yngwie308

I'm just about to turn 40 next year and I've been playing for 20+ years. In those 20+ years, all I've ever wanted was a good Strat and Les Paul and a few Marshalls. Vintage guitars and amps in America are largely not in reach of the everyday working musician or amateur player. Having said that, these vintage pieces get their pedigree not from the fact that it's a 59 Les Paul per se, but that so and so made a record in the '60's with that guitar (year/model) and sent forth an intangible mystic that is forever associated with that particular model. This is my belief why these guitars are soooo well regarded as 'the real deal'. I don't believe that a '59 Gibson Les Paul is made any better than the model's reissue made today (if the wood is good), nor do I believe or subscribe to the fact that it is worth anymore than $8-$10K just because someone made a record with that model that turned out to be a great record.

Here's is what I think. Vintage is old, and vintage is for the most part in low quantity. Guitars get better with age for the most part. Now, so and so played this model on a great record in the '60's .

BOOM! We now baby boomers with disposable income that want to hold onto a piece of their collective past and if they play guitar and/or are admirers of that genre of music then the price will go up and we now have a classic case of the $500K Les Paul. Is this scenario true? Yes, and as well the Japenese come over to the States' guitar shows and buy 'em up - never to be seem again. Now I have a problem with that because the US has great history in guitars and fuck the Japenese businessman who come over here and will buy 'em and then fuck off back to Asia with a piece of fine Americana - I hate the thought that guitar hisroy is for sale but it is and like everything else in life there is a price tag.

Amps OTOH, to me are more sacred because we all know that there are so many restrictions these days on the use of materials that can no longer be used like they used to use back in the day. RoHS and such etc. Plus the fact that folks like Marshall do not strive to build better than they did back in the day, but can really just hope to survive in today's climate and global marketplace.

Old Gibson's are nice but not worth the asking price nowadays.

A '68 12 Series Marshall in mint condition for $8-$10K? That is a piece worth anyone's left nut.

BTW, George is making me a 12 series...albeit with old mustards I sent him. I will use NOS mullards as well 'cause I know they don't caps and tubes like they used to.

I think today's kids for the most part don't have a fuckin' clue beyond how to text message their buddy much less embrace what's goin' on in the real world. Damn shame too!

Good post Dave.

Wow, Yng... awesome post. What a fine line we tread trying to make sense out of life in general. Ive heard it said that the knowledge of our own mortality (and all the psychological drama that comes as a result), by definition, would make us all insane. I mean, look at all the things that influence us in a year, in a day, in an hour, and sometimes in a second. Really, when you get down to it, its the second that counts. EVERYTHING happens in a second. One second you're an idea, the next second you're born. One second you're alive, the next second you're not. Even thru a traumatic illness, we go from + to - in a second. I guess the point Im trying to make is that if we take the lightning flash of time that is the length of our existence on earth, and try (at best) to make a "good way" for ourselves, and the people we interact with, then our job is done to the best of our abilities, with what we're given to work with. The things we do, the things we say, the people we touch, are all thats left when we're gone. Its a hell of a thing to make a positive, lasting mark on this planet, and the folks we leave behind. Its also a hell of a thing when we do the opposite, as so many people do, but thats how they will be remembered, and in the final analysis, thats all there is. All this sounds like heady stuff, but the trickle down effect has a full head of steam here. That LP junior you sold instead of your Goldtop says VOLUMES about who you are. It meant something to you. Your FRIEND meant something to you. In the big scheme of things, it seems like small potatoes, but it really isnt. When you know the ways that some people operate, and you know how you differ from them, it sets your mental compass in the right direction, as long as your M.O. is one of honesty, first and foremost, to yourself. We bring this "good self" to everyone we meet, and they can sense that. Do you know why some people get pissed when they see you in a good frame of mind? Because they would like to access that from within themselves, but they cant, so they mask the failure within themselves externally with anger. The better you seem to be, the more pissed they get. You can see this in full effect in the NY subway system on any given morning. Get on there in a good mood, say good morning to people with a smile on your face, and watch how many scowls and grunts are mixed in with the painfully few smiles you get in return. You smile at people in this city, and they want to know what your trying to sell them. Well, thats ok. I do it anyway. The (really long winded) moral to the story is, yes, human values ARE disposable, but they dont have to be, if we dont let them. We cant change the world by ourselves, but we can exit knowing we made a difference, even if its only within a few feet of where we stand. If everyone did that, it WOULD change the world, but everyone WONT do that. DO enjoy what you have, because its fleeting, and in the end, it wont make a bit of difference WHAT you had, only to your beneficiaries. Trying to strike that balance in life is what we all do, and sometimes its a mutha, and sometimes its so easy, it seems stupid. Try not to question yourself TOO much, my friend. Its real easy to get lost in introspection, and miss the party thats just waiting for you to show up.

Thanks cole any fillmore for your insightful replies and compliments, I am happy knowing others are looking at the big picture too .

yngwie308

Great thread, and great sentiments by all.
Thanks for posting it.

Real good post. Yngwie308,Cole, Fillmore NYC, and Eargasm, I read every word of your posts. Great stuff there, very insightful, as I always expect from y'all.

I too, try to be considerate of other's first and foremost. I also feel like a 'freak' at times for getting so into this great 'expression' we all share here with the "guitar/amp and tools of the trade stuff". It is so enompassing and trancendental to me. It's true about how, 'in a second', ones thoughts can change. For example, I, for very short moments tell myself, " All this guitar playin' and equipment stuff doesnt make me happy". That 'second' or so that this thought lasts is scary, cause since I was very young, music and guitars have ALWAYS been something that makes me very , very happy. If this were to change, I wouldnt know what to do. Of course, this is all in perspective. My wife, son, and extended family and friends are always first, but, in a 'selfish' kinda way, this guitar stuff is what I like to do as my 'Hobby', shall we say.

I agree about the prices of vintage nowaday's. It's very sad. That is why I hold on to what I know deep down, which is "Aint no ones blood any better than anyone else's (Royalty ? ha), and this same theory holds true for instruments. I'ts always someone thinking they are ,or trying to be better than someone else. Competition, fear,etc. A '58 or '60 Les Paul's lower price tag as compared to a '59's is testament to this whole thing. From what I've heard, more '58's sound better than the '59's, like Page's, EVH's and M. Knophlers 58's. Granted, the '59 Green/Moore is an exception to this.

I too sorta 'cringe' when I'm at a Guitar show where there is a '59 Les Paul (twice, I've seen a real '59) cause on both occasions, there was an entourage of Japanese buissiness men walking in with thier attache cases in hand. They must keep up with Where these models are ?

I too, 'cringe' when I think of all the great gear I've had in the past, and lost my ass on them ., but I will alway's keep my '56 reissue Tokai strat. It is a '84 model, and is the best sounding guitar I've ever owned. The tremelo blocks on them are 'special', which accounts for alot of the tone. This guitar will probably never be worth much to people obsessed with money and possesions, but, to musicians who know tone, this guitar is priceless, as it has 'slayed' every $30,000 strat it's been up against.

Tone Slinger wrote:Real good post. Yngwie308,Cole, Fillmore NYC, and Eargasm, I read every word of your posts. Great stuff there, very insightful, as I always expect from y'all.

I too, try to be considerate of other's first and foremost. I also feel like a 'freak' at times for getting so into this great 'expression' we all share here with the "guitar/amp and tools of the trade stuff". It is so enompassing and trancendental to me. It's true about how, 'in a second', ones thoughts can change. For example, I, for very short moments tell myself, " All this guitar playin' and equipment stuff doesnt make me happy". That 'second' or so that this thought lasts is scary, cause since I was very young, music and guitars have ALWAYS been something that makes me very , very happy. If this were to change, I wouldnt know what to do. Of course, this is all in perspective. My wife, son, and extended family and friends are always first, but, in a 'selfish' kinda way, this guitar stuff is what I like to do as my 'Hobby', shall we say.

I agree about the prices of vintage nowaday's. It's very sad. That is why I hold on to what I know deep down, which is "Aint no ones blood any better than anyone else's (Royalty ? ha), and this same theory holds true for instruments. I'ts always someone thinking they are ,or trying to be better than someone else. Competition, fear,etc. A '58 or '60 Les Paul's lower price tag as compared to a '59's is testament to this whole thing. From what I've heard, more '58's sound better than the '59's, like Page's, EVH's and M. Knophlers 58's. Granted, the '59 Green/Moore is an exception to this.

I too sorta 'cringe' when I'm at a Guitar show where there is a '59 Les Paul (twice, I've seen a real '59) cause on both occasions, there was an entourage of Japanese buissiness men walking in with thier attache cases in hand. They must keep up with Where these models are ?

I too, 'cringe' when I think of all the great gear I've had in the past, and lost my ass on them ., but I will alway's keep my '56 reissue Tokai strat. It is a '84 model, and is the best sounding guitar I've ever owned. The tremelo blocks on them are 'special', which accounts for alot of the tone. This guitar will probably never be worth much to people obsessed with money and possesions, but, to musicians who know tone, this guitar is priceless, as it has 'slayed' every $30,000 strat it's been up against.

Hey, TS. Sometime, try to gauge when that feeling of "this doesnt make me happy" comes up, cause it may well be when you have some other pressing responsibility in the recesses of your mind somewhere. It sounds like a little guilt, and if it is, thats really normal, especially considering that you say that its a fleeting moment. You have to be really well aware, and honest about whether its taking away from other aspects of your life enough to negatively affect them, and your wife and kids are absolute priority here. Your wife, son and extended family SHOULD come first, and by the trickle down effect, THEY love your guitars and equipment, but they probably dont realize it. The happiness that your rig brings you is given as a gift to them by your happier, more settled feelings within yourself, as a result of your male self being satiated by the aquisition, and ownership of what your heart wants. (that goes whether you're talking about a man OR woman--male and female selves live in all of us). We cant ALWAYS stroke the heart this way, as we would be pretty self-centered at that point, but its about balance, as we all know. Its pretty easy to let the mind attach to something, though, and fool our better judgement into thinking "we need" this stuff, and thats where addiction comes in. There are PLENTY of guys addicted to "guitar aquisition syndrome" (among about a zillion other things we can get addicted to), but like all addicts, they are NEVER happy. Only very briefly, when the conquering of a new aquisition occurs. After the dopamine, and adrenaline wears off, the addict starts craving again... and the cycle repeats, until such time when the person breaks the addiction, which can be a SUPER mutha. Sorry about all the long winded thoughts here, but this killa post... the psychological implications... I... I... Im kinda addicted to it!!!! , but always

The other day I picked up my '83 1957 Reissue Strat from the last of Fullerton, hadn't played it in months, and it just sang in my hands, even my wife said it sounded well .Just enjoying playing my "Blackie", it's the guitar I've had the longest now and just through the old crate (30 watt), it is magic..
I think the CS '69 Strat and the JB Oxblood and I'll be done, also a Metro 50 watt MK II clone .
It's great to play your favorite, and as I told my wife, If I had to keep one, it would be my Blackie, with the blocked trem.
yngwie308

yngwie308 wrote: It's great to play your favorite, and as I told my wife, If I had to keep one
yngwie308

It IS great to "play" your favorite, especially if that happens to BE your wife... And if I had to keep JUST ONE...

I didn't mean it like that.. of course my wife is my favorite, it's her birthday today.
yngwie308

yngwie308 wrote:I didn't mean it like that.. of course my wife is my favorite, it's her birthday today.
yngwie308

I know you didnt mean it like that, it was just a play on words. Hey, wish her a Happy Birthday from this member of the forum!! Now, go break out the black American Express card you didnt tell her about, and buy her that Enzo that SHE'S been lusting for!!

She'd be happy with the old F40 I want, a steal at $400K !
Thanks
Yngwie308

Man, I leave you guys alone for day and you start getting DEEP!

I am total agreement with what you have all expressed. I actually starting thinking along these very lines after reading the posts about Heritage.

Are we getting like our parents? "Man, the good old days.." Or are we really living something worse, more declined, decadent, etc???

BTW Dave, Since you're driving out here for the amp show I'll take a ride in that Enzo!

Mike when I announced that I was looking for a F40, Ferrari were kind enough to send a few over to mi casa......




Yngwie308

That SHIT ain't right, Dave!