The Importance of Learning How To Play

Everyday chat. No political or religious discussions.

Moderators: VelvetGeorge, BUG

User avatar
demonufo
Senior Member
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:36 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Carterton, Oxon, U.K.
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by demonufo » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:35 pm

efraser68 wrote:I would much rather hear someone strum chords on a slightly outta tune guitar of a sweet rig than someone being able to shred VH licks perfectly in the bedroom using Line 6 bullshit...
Really? Wow. My ears, and unfortunate curse of perfect pitch usually convert hearing out of tune guitars into physical pain. Quite literally.
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!

83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

julkke
Senior Member
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:07 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Finland

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by julkke » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:41 pm

I think the main point is the bad players clips often sound like crap. It seems that you need to understand playing to understand tone. They often lack self critism on both playing and tone. Not always though, I have heard great clips from not so good players but usually the tone sucks as well as the playing. Of course great players tone can be bad too but I like to listen to the music more than tone and dont mind if it isn't the best ever.

User avatar
Scumback Speakers
Supporting Advertiser
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by Scumback Speakers » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:42 pm

efraser68 wrote:I would much rather hear someone strum chords on a slightly outta tune guitar of a sweet rig than someone being able to shred VH licks perfectly in the bedroom using Line 6 bullshit...
Sorry, that drives me insane to think someone would purposely post a clip of an out of tune guitar being played to represent tone or playing ability.
demonufo wrote: Really? Wow. My ears, and unfortunate curse of perfect pitch usually convert hearing out of tune guitars into physical pain. Quite literally.
I'm not sure I have perfect pitch, but it's pretty good. And I do hear lots of nuances in playing from others, and my own. But it is VERY distracting to me, and detracts from the effect of the clip to demonstrate your inability to tune a guitar, or play a riff correctly. I guess some find this to be acceptable.

I would have worked on all (less than) 30 notes in ATBL and gotten it dialed in really close before I posted anything.
Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone
sales@scumbackspeakers.com
http://www.scumbackspeakers.com
310-833-6632

User avatar
efraser68
Senior Member
Posts: 1129
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by efraser68 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:53 pm

...the point being this is an amp forum for observing tone I wasn't implying that I "enjoy" outta tune guitars. There's two different questions really from the OP. Is learning to play decent guitar important, yes. Nobody is going to deny the importance of learning to play things at a reasonable level of accuracy, of course that's important. I too have played in signed bands (Sony EMI) and have played in front of thousands of people before and understand the importance of this. What's the intent of Metro Forum? For only the best-of-the-best to post clips?
Remember Ben Wise (aka Stunt Double) & Mark Abrahamian
http://www.soundclick.com/EricFraser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Scumback Speakers
Supporting Advertiser
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by Scumback Speakers » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:24 pm

efraser68 wrote:What's the intent of Metro Forum? For only the best-of-the-best to post clips?
No. But there should be some minimum levels of playing ability, IMO. Of course in one member's case, it's obvious that no really productive practicing has been attempted or achieved in the last 8 years for one particular song that I'm aware of. If you're going to copy riffs from someone like EVH, factor in you're copying one of the finest guitar players living or dead, and try not to butcher the music he made with your piss poor rendition of it.

As a self respecting guitar player, I wouldn't post it. I would have more pride than that. As a manufacturer I shudder listening to it.

As a member of an amp building forum, maybe the bar is set so low that these types of clips from crappy players is accepted on some level...I don't know.

But to continually make the same mistakes 8 years in a row with little or no improvement? I'd find a song I could play without embarrassing the shit out of myself. But that's just me.
Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone
sales@scumbackspeakers.com
http://www.scumbackspeakers.com
310-833-6632

User avatar
YMI5150?
Senior Member
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:38 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Los Gatos, CA
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by YMI5150? » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:16 pm

efraser68 wrote:...the point being this is an amp forum for observing tone I wasn't implying that I "enjoy" outta tune guitars. There's two different questions really from the OP. Is learning to play decent guitar important, yes. Nobody is going to deny the importance of learning to play things at a reasonable level of accuracy, of course that's important. I too have played in signed bands (Sony EMI) and have played in front of thousands of people before and understand the importance of this. What's the intent of Metro Forum? For only the best-of-the-best to post clips?
agreed 100%. this site has a stigma of everything having to be perfect. I agree with the tone snob side of it :wink: , but have an issue with the ability side. hell, i suck relative to most who post here. but if you promote this, you'll miss out on clips like this one that seems to get decent feedback

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

not tooting the horn by any stretch. just saying it took a long time for me to feel even remotely close to comfortable posting clips but I think I've added to the chase and helped a few along the way.

:rocker:

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by garbeaj » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:07 pm

efraser68 wrote:I understand where you're coming from Garbeaj and I believe I get the spirit or intention of your post. And I certainly won't knock the importance of practice or learning guitar like any other discipline. However, Metro is an amp building forum for people who really want to immerse themselves into the ever-so-slightest of nuances of a particular player's tone. I've heard guys here who I thought had the ultimate tone or setup, and they keep digging further because you can always get closer, right? As it pertains to the VH portion of Metro, seems to bring out a lot of good and bad at the same time. My own 2 cents, I would much rather have someone relentlessly perfect a tone because it has the potentially of benefiting all who want to get to that same place.

I would much rather hear someone strum chords on a slightly outta tune guitar of a sweet rig than someone being able to shred VH licks perfectly in the bedroom using Line 6 bullshit...I have no use for that. Just saying, having people that can build these dream amps AND that can deliver a lick with perfect fingering, timing, attack is pretty damn rare. I'm not sure I agree with shamming people for their playing ability in an amp forum?
I totally know what you mean and agree with you. It wasn't easy for me to decide to post this, believe me. And you know I'm totally out of place in an amp building forum...I don't do any work on my amps whatsoever and I pay my tech to do any work on my amps, effects and guitars.

It is just that some of the playing has been SO bad...almost to the point where you would swear the person may have only been playing for a couple of months. I really have a lot of trouble even judging an amp sound when the playing is so God awful. This is certainly a major part of why I went to Mark to mod my Marshall. I could hear the amp react to someone who has spent as much time as I have studying Van Halen. I could hear how his amp reacted to palm muting in the opening licks of "Eruption". I never would have been able to judge that if somebody made a clip of the same amp without an understanding of how to palm mute or play these licks in a way that is at least somewhat correct.

This is such a huge part of the tone equation, and we all say it..."It's in the hands...". This is why Bill and myself and others post in the "Where Ed Plays On the Neck" thread. We feel pretty strongly about how much proper fingering impacts the sound. You can build a great amp, but I'll never know how great it is unless I hear someone that at least somewhat knows what they are doing playing through it.

One thing is for sure...I will not compliment someone's playing if it in fact sucks. For what it's worth, when I compliment your clips (and I know that I have) it is because you can play and that I can tell you give a shit. I just think that one of, if not the most important parts of a tone quest is to have a fundamental understanding and a fundamental working base of technique. I'm not saying it has to be perfect...I'm just trying to encourage everyone to really practice.
Last edited by garbeaj on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tone Slinger
Senior Member
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:31 am

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by Tone Slinger » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:55 am

Regarding tuning.........does anyone here like listening to live Hendrix :jimi: . I do, I also like live Deep Purple (Ritchie B.) and old Scorpions era Roth and EVH. ALL of those dudes would get 'slightly' (Blackmore, EVH) or 'very' (Hendrix) out of tune. Even though I have pretty much perfected keeping 6 screw tremelo's in tune, I to, will at times, get ever so slightly out of tune :clap: .

Everybody has something to offer, regardless of thier playing abilities. Some of the BEST tones I've heard come from some of the LEAST technical players. The time/beat of a player is more important to me, than playing the 'correct' notes in incorrect time.

Mark (rip) is a great ex. of someone who had the time and feel of certain players he was copping (like EVH), but played HIS OWN take (notewise),yet sounded SO authentic. I strive for that.
Last edited by Tone Slinger on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rip Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah)

User avatar
vanhalen5150
Senior Member
Posts: 7307
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:13 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7
Location: Halifax, Canada

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by vanhalen5150 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 am

.
Last edited by vanhalen5150 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
12000 Metro Kit

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by garbeaj » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:46 pm

Tone Slinger wrote:Regarding tuning.........does anyone here like listening to live Hendrix :jimi: . I do, I also like live Deep Purple (Ritchie B.) and old Scorpions era Roth and EVH. ALL of those dudes would get 'slightly' (Blackmore, EVH) or 'very' (Hendrix) out of tune. Even though I have pretty much perfected keeping 6 screw tremelo's in tune, I to, will at times, get ever so slightly out of tune :clap: .

Everybody has something to offer, regardless of thier playing abilities. Some of the BEST tones I've heard come from some of the LEAST technical players. The time/beat of a player is more important to me, than playing the 'correct' notes in incorrect time.

Mark (rip) is a great ex. of someone who had the time and feel of certain players he was copping (like EVH), but played HIS OWN take (notewise),yet sounded SO authentic. I strive for that.
I agree with all that, but to be clear I am talking about people that have almost no elementary level playing going for them...ie. they haven't practiced bending and hitting target pitches, lots of unintentional gaffes (not just one or two, but the whole clip is just one giant mistake) and most especially when they are playing notes that are so completely different from the actual riff that they are trying to play that it is obvious they just don't have the skill to pull it off or they are just lazy and don't care. My point is that even the laziest player can go on YouTube or look in a guitar magazine or TAB book and get most of the simple riffs at least 90% correct.

I'm talking about cringing in embarrassment for the player myself...when I listen and I can hear what he is trying to play and the guy is just screwing everything up. I think "Wow...he couldn't have meant to actually play that. Why did he post this?". I mean I understand that a tone demo isn't necessarily meant to be as exact as it would be if you were doing a lesson video on how to play something. I've made tone demos that fall well short of the mark playing-wise. But I'm talking about those clips that just make you say "Ouch!". There just isn't a reason that I can understand for these clips.

I mean to encourage players to practice more and seek out more correct fingerings. At least this way someone might think twice before making a clip that is far beyond their ability to play and maybe they will then do what musicians do...practice until you get it as right as you can get it...THEN make a clip and demo whatever you are trying to demo. In the end it helps all of us get a better understanding of the tone and response of whatever amp tweak you are doing and hopefully it will motivate more people to practice. Everybody wins!

User avatar
Tone Slinger
Senior Member
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:31 am

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by Tone Slinger » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:47 am

+1, I totally agree with that :thumbsup:
Rip Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah)

User avatar
demonufo
Senior Member
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:36 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Carterton, Oxon, U.K.
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by demonufo » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:44 pm

There was a guy recently asking for help building an amp, and I never really got the impression he was going to actually go through with it. (Talked about too many different builds all the time, and never done one)

Once I'd heard some clips he posted, I was really quite shocked. He clearly didn't have any ability whatsoever. Honestly they were the sort of thing you never would have recorded in the first place, let alone made public. (And this is coming from a guy in a punk band who can't play for shit - ME!)
After that I kinda got the impression that he wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between a bespoke vintage Marshall style build and a Valvestate, so I just walked away quietly.

You probably would think I'm a complete arsehole after reading that, but if you heard the clips... :bang:
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!

83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

User avatar
Scumback Speakers
Supporting Advertiser
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by Scumback Speakers » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:12 pm

demonufo: I hear you loud and clear on the ability to match the gear.

When I went out test driving Corvettes last year, it was a toss up between the Z06 (six speed manual) and the regular coupe with the automatic.

One salesman went for a ride with me in the Z06. It had a turbocharger added to it, and made around 500hp. When we went for the test drive I asked him if the traction control was necessary or could I turn it off for the test drive. He said to turn it off if I wanted. I pulled over to the side of the road, turned off the TC, then revved the motor to about 4000 rpm, side stepped the clutch and turned the wheel hard left. The Vette did a beautiful 180 degree turn, smoking the tires and started to drift towards the curb on the other side. That's when I shifted to 2nd and it caught traction and hauled ass down the street. We made it to about 80 before I had to shut it down for a stop sign.

When we got back to the dealership, the salesman got out a little shaky. My wife was there and looked at him, asked if he was ok. He replied "It's obvious your husband has some experience driving a stick shift with a high horsepower motor."

Then he excused himself to run to the bathroom, I believe to clean his shorts.

The point is simply this...it seems silly to display your talents in public if they're lacking, whether you're driving a high performance car or playing a guitar through an amp.
Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone
sales@scumbackspeakers.com
http://www.scumbackspeakers.com
310-833-6632

User avatar
demonufo
Senior Member
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:36 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Carterton, Oxon, U.K.
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by demonufo » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:40 pm

:clap:
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!

83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

User avatar
garbeaj
Senior Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:58 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Houston, TX

Re: The Importance of Learning How To Play

Post by garbeaj » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:43 pm

demonufo wrote:There was a guy recently asking for help building an amp, and I never really got the impression he was going to actually go through with it. (Talked about too many different builds all the time, and never done one)

Once I'd heard some clips he posted, I was really quite shocked. He clearly didn't have any ability whatsoever. Honestly they were the sort of thing you never would have recorded in the first place, let alone made public. (And this is coming from a guy in a punk band who can't play for shit - ME!)
After that I kinda got the impression that he wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between a bespoke vintage Marshall style build and a Valvestate, so I just walked away quietly.

You probably would think I'm a complete arsehole after reading that, but if you heard the clips... :bang:
Man I totally hear you...and I also identify with the arsehole thing (or asshole as we Yanks call it!)...It is really difficult to put this out there without sounding like you are putting your own ability above someone else's, but as you say "but if you heard the clips... :bang: I hate to come off sounding like a jerk in any way, but I do think there are some people that just need to be encouraged to practice and discouraged from making clips that are an embarassment to them and the listener. I thought that by making this thread it might give some of these guys a reality check on their playing, but it is hard to maintain that reality when people compliment such obviously bad playing on a stunningly regular basis.

Post Reply