What happened to the 18watt forum?

dynaman · Post by **dynaman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:54 pm

Wazzup?

NitroLiq · Post by **NitroLiq** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:55 pm

This seems to have been discussed everywhere but here....you can find related threads at TGP forums, trinityamps forums, and the trainwreck forums.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:27 am

Seems its a good thing George chose 100W amps which few people do kits of and certainly almost noone else does anywhere near as quality. Its rediculousness. If what you said on the TW page is true then these 18W vendors should focus on their CS and their own value for the kits or amps they sell instead of sueing over things individuals say in public forums. Im still trying to decipher what the deal is with the person in question. I guess youll never have that drama here anyway. This is a vendors own site so theres no assumption of objectivity or 3rd party ads. George can be as objective as he wants but the fact is since its his site it can be his way or the highway which I guess would make it a lesser forum if run by people of less integrity. But it also does away with that nonsense happening on the 18W page.

The one guy was right though. It was very commercial at the 18W page. Again only because it was a third party. Another vendor would never come here and start pedling and badmouthing. Even if they did it wouldnt go anywhere. Another reason this site is so much better. There's no, this guy makes better kits then that guy, kinda shit here. For one, even though people here buy metro kits, I get the sense that the people here dont have to rely on kits on the whole. They get the best parts they want which are prety much available here anyway.

Bainzy · Post by **Bainzy** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:47 am

Billy Batz wrote:For one, even though people here buy metro kits, I get the sense that the people here dont have to rely on kits on the whole. They get the best parts they want which are prety much available here anyway.

I think you're right on that, and I think George's liberal attitude works to his advantage. Even though this forum has got me into building amps instead of buying them, so I probably won't buy any Metroamp amps until I've got a full time job, when I source parts for my own builds, I for one would much rather buy my things from Metroamp than an alternative company even if the price was a bit more (which it probably wouldn't be), because I know that George is very customer satisfaction orientated.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:50 am

The guys doing 18W kits seem much more 'kit' oriented. Paint by numbers kinda crowd. 100W's are more complex (relatively) and so I think newbies put in more time learning about them. Not to mention this could be the most practicle amp building site Ive ever been to other then Ampage. The atmousphere with newbies is teach them about building amps not teach them about putting a kit together.

BashCoder · Post by **BashCoder** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:40 am

Last week in the thread I started on the top 5 must-have Marshalls, only a couple people mentioned an 18-watter as belonging in that class. Granted, I'm sure that if I asked that question over at an 18-watt site, it would be a completely different result. Folks who hang out here tend to be in the 45-100 watt camp for sure. But I thought I would see a few more folks saying "Gotta have a 1974X!"

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:57 am

The 18/20W amps arent really classic tones in the sense that people used them on albums and people are recreating them. As Champs would be for instance. I see the higher headroom sound more classic as far as marshall is concerned where the 18W craze was only about flexibility. If you really could get a 100Wers tone in the same size, volume and price package as an 18W wouldnt you rather have it? I dont know taht people feel that way about champs because theyre sound is very unique. Not saying some people dont genuinly love the 18Wers tone but I think the marshall vibe is captured best by the bigger amps wheras the 18W is about getting the sound of the bigger amps in a more practical sized amp.

marshman · Post by **marshman** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:01 pm

As a newbie member of both forums, and owner of a 20watt clone, I think the 18/20 thing is not so much about physical size as it is about volume. It's about power tubes at full bore. We're not all delusional about our 'mini-plexis'. Sure, there are guys there with 18watters driving full stacks. Just as a person could build a 1x12 100watter. I went with the 20 because I can literally crank it and still be in the room. I don't know that I'd want to do that with one of the monster 100s. I read there for the same reason I'm here, trying to learn what makes amps work.

I always thought the 18watt forum was pretty low-key in terms of the crap that has apparently gone down. There was a fair bit of 'this guys kit does this' and 'that guys kit has that', but it generally seemed to be non-dealer members doing the pointing, and the dealers just stuck with the "MINE does this" sorta schtuff.

It also seems that most of the folks aver there are interested in kits because it seems the easiest way to get started. There are a few guys that are hard-core about sourcing every part individually and building from scratch, but it seems an unreasonable way to start out when a better option is available. Once the basics are absorbed, I can move on to tougher/more intricate stuff.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:31 pm

When I said size I was reffering more to volume BTW. I wasnt thinking people care that much about the phyical size of the amp.

Im still trying to figure out what the hell went down. If Im readong the other forum threads right a one time hobby builder was unhappy with the kits out, badmouthed them then turned around and started making his own kits/amps to sell and then went on the forum and used it to bad mouth another kit/amp guy(s) who then bad mouthed him in return which led to the first guy talking lawsuit against the guy who runs the 18W site which shut it down. Is that about right? Its confusing since noone is refering to anyone by name

Post by **VelvetGeorge** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:25 pm

What's going on over there? Sorry, I don't have time to read up.

I will say that my take all along has been that this market is way to small to compete with each other. We will all benefit from working together and spreading the word about our kits and products.
I want you guys to buy Wallace transformers and Ray D boards, Hoffman kits ect. That means you're aware of the possiblities for upgrades, and you'll spread the word. Then other people will want to upgrade too. Some of those people will buy parts from me. Simple as that.

George

NitroLiq · Post by **NitroLiq** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:38 pm

Basically, one forum member who's also a vendor slammed another vendor's product when explaining some part faults and the other said vendor threatened to sue 18watt for slander/libel (probably to get them to kill the thread)...this is the short version, anyway.

I think people are being polite in all the discussions by not naming names but I can give you a hint...the original guy makes pcb-based 18 watt kits...the other guy who threatened to sue...he's known for his speakers. It was wrong for the first guy to keep slamming the other guys products and he did quite a bit over the past year...mostly due to the fact that a lot of newbies were picking up said vendor's products and coming to 18 watt when they wouldn't work. The other guy probably just got sick of it but the whole suing 18watt was out of line and he's pissed off ALOT of people who won't be doing business with him ever again...so, in this way, he kind of shot himself in the foot.

I can understand him being pissed...I know the original guy in person and he's a good guy but online he just pushes people's buttons...kind of like a crotchety old uncle or something but he should've known better especially as a vendor himself. Gabi and Graydon should've put a leash on him a long time ago. The other guy should've taken this offline or something, not involved 18watt....and as a vendor he should also listen to what everyone is saying so he gets the bad with the good regarding his products and hopefully find a way to better them. He offers low-cost kits with speakers for a great price...okay...but when some parts don't work and there are QA issues, is the buyer really saving? Not to mention, he seems to take other folks' hard work at putting together layouts and before you know it, he offers it as a kit.

The bottom line is both vendors were at fault and 18watt got caught in the crossfire so now they're making some major changes. I know some of them but I'll let the admins talk about it when they're ready.

Billy Batz wrote:The guys doing 18W kits seem much more 'kit' oriented. Paint by numbers kinda crowd. 100W's are more complex (relatively) and so I think newbies put in more time learning about them. Not to mention this could be the most practicle amp building site Ive ever been to other then Ampage. The atmousphere with newbies is teach them about building amps not teach them about putting a kit together.

Let's be fair, Dan. We get a lot of newbies who want to learn how to build and want something practical and cost-effective (50-100 watters aren't all the practical). An 18 or a champ are both good starter amps and it may give them the confidence to move on to bigger and LOUDER amps. People learn at their own pace. Some folks just want to build one or two amps for themselves....others may get the bug for building. Alot of work has been put into some of these 18 watt kits so if that helps someone...so be it. But, there are tons of regulars there building everything from wrecks to carmen ghia clones to JTM 45s to hiwatts as well as designing their own circuits. You just tend to see alot of newbies asking the same questions about the various kits so maybe it seems like that's all that's there.

Billy Batz wrote:It was very commercial at the 18W page. Again only because it was a third party. Another vendor would never come here and start pedling and badmouthing. Even if they did it wouldnt go anywhere. Another reason this site is so much better. There's no, this guy makes better kits then that guy, kinda shit here. For one, even though people here buy metro kits, I get the sense that the people here dont have to rely on kits on the whole. They get the best parts they want which are prety much available here anyway.

Most of the regulars ignored the commercialism. Most of the vendors you'd see would be explaining the differences between each of the kits not "Buy mine! Buy Mine!" though that has happened before. We have a separate dealers classified area for them to post in. Commercialism aside, there's a still a wealth of good people and information there. Just like you feel about Metro, I've felt the same way about 18watt.

Bainzy wrote:I for one would much rather buy my things from Metroamp than an alternative company even if the price was a bit more (which it probably wouldn't be), because I know that George is very customer satisfaction orientated.

I think that most (not all) vendors that offer kits and parts are customer service oriented...at least the ones that I use when sourcing parts seem to be. George deserves accolades though because he does really go the extra mile, and I don't mean that in a sort of Eddie Haskell kind of way.

Billy Batz wrote:The 18/20W amps arent really classic tones in the sense that people used them on albums and people are recreating them. As Champs would be for instance. I see the higher headroom sound more classic as far as marshall is concerned where the 18W craze was only about flexibility. If you really could get a 100Wers tone in the same size, volume and price package as an 18W wouldnt you rather have it? I dont know taht people feel that way about champs because theyre sound is very unique. Not saying some people dont genuinly love the 18Wers tone but I think the marshall vibe is captured best by the bigger amps wheras the 18W is about getting the sound of the bigger amps in a more practical sized amp.

I disagree. The 18watt to me is a like a self-biased mini jtm-45. Dime the normal channel straight and it's Paul Kossoff. With the right speakers/cab you can get a bit of compression ...I could go out and buy any modern marshall and think it's the worst POS tone in the world, whether it's 20 or 100 watts. It's mostly about the circuit, imo.

Good gravy that was a load of typing.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:50 pm

NitroLiq wrote:Let's be fair, Dan. We get a lot of newbies who want to learn how to build and want something practical and cost-effective (50-100 watters aren't all the practical). An 18 or a champ are both good starter amps and it may give them the confidence to move on to bigger and LOUDER amps. People learn at their own pace. Some folks just want to build one or two amps for themselves....others may get the bug for building. Alot of work has been put into some of these 18 watt kits so if that helps someone...so be it. But, there are tons of regulars there building everything from wrecks to carmen ghia clones to JTM 45s to hiwatts as well as designing their own circuits. You just tend to see alot of newbies asking the same questions about the various kits so maybe it seems like that's all that's there.

Yeah I guess your right. But how many one time builders do you think there are out there? I dont think that many compared to people who are, even when thety intend to learn by doing just one, get addicted. I just get the feeling that, regardless of how much of an undertaking the amps are jhere or even if they were 18Wers, the atmousphere here is more geared towards the amp not the kit. In that way theres less of an emphasis on kits since people think nothing of saying go with this tranny or those caps. I admit I havent posted at 18W in a long time. It is a huge forum by comparison too. Im not trying to act all above the newbie believe me. When I was totally green it took me a long time because there was no metro, 18W or whatever to help bring you up to speed in 3 months like there is now. The place I had to post at was ampage and I always felt like an idiot asking questions there since mostly techie guys hung out there back in the day.

I didnt mean to sound as if I was comming down on the 18W thing but I guess I did. I still plan on doing another for myself eventually. I did one for someone a while back.

I disagree. The 18watt to me is a like a self-biased mini jtm-45. Dime the normal channel straight and it's Paul Kossoff. With the right speakers/cab you can get a bit of compression ...I could go out and buy any modern marshall and think it's the worst POS tone in the world, whether it's 20 or 100 watts. It's mostly about the circuit, imo.

No I agree. But I think your taking me a little out of context. He was asking why the 18Wers didnt make it on the 5 all time marshall lists. Theres so many marshall classics and the 18/20Wers seem to be more a new fad then anything and a new fad because they offer the general marshall tone in a small package. You cant deny that. Whether you wind up liking them as much or more or not is a personal thing.

Good gravy that was a load of typing.

You had a lot to explain. Funny I know your talking about now. Well we know the 'speaker' guy's marshall kits arent anything to write home about. With his new move and everything and business growing Im kinda shocked he even would get involved in mudslinging.

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:59 pm

Billy Batz wrote:Well we know the 'speaker' guy's marshall kits arent anything to write home about. With his new move and everything and business growing Im kinda shocked he even would get involved in mudslinging.

His kits have their good and bad points.....the one I'm working with right now I can't possibly send out the door with this choke and OT though, these scrawny things can't possibly be up to the task of some serious meaty tone.......but if I'd done another from George right now I'd never be able to part with it either, and I just wanted something to build and sell to pass the time.

Bainzy · Post by **Bainzy** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:04 pm

NitroLiq wrote:
Bainzy wrote:I for one would much rather buy my things from Metroamp than an alternative company even if the price was a bit more (which it probably wouldn't be), because I know that George is very customer satisfaction orientated.
I think that most (not all) vendors that offer kits and parts are customer service oriented...at least the ones that I use when sourcing parts seem to be. George deserves accolades though because he does really go the extra mile, and I don't mean that in a sort of Eddie Haskell kind of way.

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant, I was thinking relative in terms of niche markets. Niche sellers tend to usually be cs orientated, but I've never seen any as dedicated as George.

All the talk of 18w amps being easier - I don't think they're that much easier. There's just a bit more wiring work to do with a 100w, and biasing if it's fixed bias. Building a 100w amp with Georges kits is still pretty much painting by numbers, and the first ever tube amp I got was in fact my 100w 1959slp which I modded the day after I got it with a Metroamp PTP board that'd been sat in my bedroom waiting for an amp to go in!

I didn't have a clue what anything in the amp or the circuit board did, all I knew was that I liked Ralle's clips! I decided to use that circuit as a starting point for developing my own sound so George was really helpful and sorted me out by substituting some of the 68 board's values for Ralle's, and that's what I wired up. Little did I know that there was so much more contributing to that tone (G12M's, filtering, tubes etc), but I didn't care at the time - I had the exact same circuit as Ralle in my amp and that was the shit, lol.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:04 pm

I love so many of speaker guys products but its funny. You get a sense from people. Speaker guy is one of those kindsa guys who chooses which questions in your email are worthy of his time to respond to. Guys like that Ive found when I finally do talk to them their always the kindsa guys I would expect to do something like threaten to sew a forum for slander for some other guys bad posts.

Flames1950 wrote:
Billy Batz wrote:Well we know the 'speaker' guy's marshall kits arent anything to write home about. With his new move and everything and business growing Im kinda shocked he even would get involved in mudslinging.
His kits have their good and bad points.....the one I'm working with right now I can't possibly send out the door with this choke and OT though, these scrawny things can't possibly be up to the task of some serious meaty tone.......but if I'd done another from George right now I'd never be able to part with it either, and I just wanted something to build and sell to pass the time.

I guess your trying to get a nice grand for the amp from his kit? Its well priced Ill say that.