1987x OT...Is it really worth changing?

[Delvis]

Howdy Folks!

I got a 1998 1987x reissue that I can't stop fiddling with. I see a lot of talk on the boards about swapping out the OT.

Is there really that much improvement over the original?

Anyone ever try the ones from Doug Hoffman?

I am new to the board and have found the information here to be extremely helpful in dialing this puppy in.

Thanks

[Flames1950]

Tough call. I had a guy bring an older 1987 reissue over to my house once and it stomped all over my seventies Marshalls.

So I'd have to say if your ears like it leave it alone.......

[Delvis]

The amp sounded pretty good stock except for that 4700p bright cap. After pulling it off and swapping rhe caps to 150's, ...I'm impressed.

I might try a couple sozo vintages for the first stage coupling just to see what the hoopla is about.

Thanks

[flemingmras]

The amp sounded pretty good stock except for that 4700p bright cap. After pulling it off and swapping rhe caps to 150's, ...I'm impressed.

I might try a couple sozo vintages for the first stage coupling just to see what the hoopla is about.

Thanks

Give the guys at Mercury Magnetics a call. Every review I've read from reissue owners who swapped the OT to an MM OT has had nothing but great things to say about them.

Awhile back (few years ago) there was a kid named Country Boy Shane on these boards who had George do a full on P2P board upgrade with Sozo caps and an MM OT + choke and the difference was night and day. It sounded almost dead on like the original Super Leads with the upgrade and he couldn't have been happier.

Metro is also an MM dealer and George is very knowledgeable when it comes to upgrading reissues in this fashion so you've come to the right place.

[demonufo]

Hmm, there might be better options than MM though depending on what you want.
I love the MM Axiom in my 2204, but it really is stiff as a board. If you want a bit more vintage accuracy, go with George's 784-139, or Marstran's, or even Chris Mer-ren's.

[gldtp99]

I have a '97 1987x (one of the white 35th anniversary heads) that is totally stock except for a tube upgrade----everybody that plays this one is impressed--- it has the stock Drake iron and it doesn't need changing.
I have an RCA 12ax7a in V1--- an RFT ECC83 in V2--- and a GE 12ax7 in V3---- NOS RFT EL34's for outputs.
After re-tubing/biasing i knew enough to leave this one alone--- some amps "have it" and this one most definitely does.
Have you tried some quality tubes in your amp ? I think this would be much easier (and should be done 1st) than major component changes right off the bat----i tried lots of quality 12ax7-type tubes and this set sounded best in this amp, with the NOS RFT EL34's---i tried Mullards, Brimars, Tungsrams, EI's, Sylvania's, Phillips, etc, etc.
I'd exhaust quality tube possibilities before changing the OT.
I've built many 2204-type variants with many 50 watt Marshall-type OT's and all the OT's i've used sound good--- not a bad apple in the bunch---i've used "cast-off" OT's left over from people upgrading their OT and selling me the old OT for cheap-----the "Mule M50" in my soundclips below is a modern voiced 2204-type and it runs a Dagnall OT from a newer 1987XL (bought cheap)---i've used New Sensor 50 watt Marshall OT's and i believe that they are the same OT that is sold by Hoffman----i've read that these OT's are actually made by Magnetic Components and are the same OT as the ones sold by AES (CE), Triode, and others for @$45----- there's nothing wrong with these OT's and i have two new ones onhand for future builds.
I'm sure Merc Mag, Marstran, etc iron is great----i also have two Merc Mag 50 watt Marshall OT's waiting for future builds. Also Metro (Heyboer) and Marstran 100 watt OT's onhand for other builds.
but i don't think that just changing out the stock Drake in your 1987x for another OT is going to give any magic all in itself--- try upgrading the tubes first----- if you really want a 50 watter to mod out maybe building a Metro kit would be the way to go---it's easier working with Metro's turret board than the 1987x's PCB...........................gldtp99

[novosibir]

Haven't tried the MetroAmp 50W OT yet, but have compared a Marstran 784-139 to a MM 50W OT - and the MM fell short.

Larry

[darkbluemurder]

I second the Marstran recommendation. I have only compared it to one other manufacturer's 50W Marshall model (and of course the original 73 Marshall transformer which was shot) and I liked it the best. It now lives a happy life in my Chieftain build

Cheers Stephan

[neikeel]

I have a '97 1987x (one of the white 35th anniversary heads) that is totally stock except for a tube upgrade----everybody that plays this one is impressed--- it has the stock Drake iron and it doesn't need changing.
I have an RCA 12ax7a in V1--- an RFT ECC83 in V2--- and a GE 12ax7 in V3---- NOS RFT EL34's for outputs.
After re-tubing/biasing i knew enough to leave this one alone--- some amps "have it" and this one most definitely does.
Have you tried some quality tubes in your amp ? I think this would be much easier (and should be done 1st) than major component changes right off the bat----i tried lots of quality 12ax7-type tubes and this set sounded best in this amp, with the NOS RFT EL34's---i tried Mullards, Brimars, Tungsrams, EI's, Sylvania's, Phillips, etc, etc.
I'd exhaust quality tube possibilities before changing the OT.
I've built many 2204-type variants with many 50 watt Marshall-type OT's and all the OT's i've used sound good--- not a bad apple in the bunch---i've used "cast-off" OT's left over from people upgrading their OT and selling me the old OT for cheap-----the "Mule M50" in my soundclips below is a modern voiced 2204-type and it runs a Dagnall OT from a newer 1987XL (bought cheap)---i've used New Sensor 50 watt Marshall OT's and i believe that they are the same OT that is sold by Hoffman----i've read that these OT's are actually made by Magnetic Components and are the same OT as the ones sold by AES (CE), Triode, and others for @$45----- there's nothing wrong with these OT's and i have two new ones onhand for future builds.
I'm sure Merc Mag, Marstran, etc iron is great----i also have two Merc Mag 50 watt Marshall OT's waiting for future builds. Also Metro (Heyboer) and Marstran 100 watt OT's onhand for other builds.
but i don't think that just changing out the stock Drake in your 1987x for another OT is going to give any magic all in itself--- try upgrading the tubes first----- if you really want a 50 watter to mod out maybe building a Metro kit would be the way to go---it's easier working with Metro's turret board than the 1987x's PCB...........................gldtp99

I agree very much with this view.

I have serviced a few Marshalls 50watters, restored a couple and built four with all combinations of OT. The original-139s (early and late) and the Marstran -139 and Metro -139 all had their merits. I have had one from Drake that is probably only fit as a doorstop and another from a Scottish firm called Douglas that is particularly special (no idea why) that I am saving for when Brian Wallace sends my -324 PT back from rewinding

My only MM OT is in my JTM45 and it is a relatively stiff, hi-fi type OT even with plenty of hours on it. This needed CC resistors, soft filtering and good tubes to sound how I wanted it to.

It is your money after all, but good quality valves are vital before changing the OT and wil still be useful if you do, IMO

[PCollen]

" Many people believe that the Marshall output transformer is a key 'secret ingredient' to the Marshall sound. It may well be, but the transformer in and of itself is not all that special. Side story #2. Over the years, one of my tube 'teachers' has stated he has changed a handful of Marshall output transformers, substituting regular cheap 'no-name' output transformers. He received not a single complaint of 'What did you do to my Marshall? It sounds like shit!' I have done the same 'experiment' (using smaller than what you'd expect transformers) and achieved a similar lack of complaints. In his book 'The Ultimate Tone', Kevin O'Connor is very surprised that the Marshall output transformer is about the same physical size as a Fender Deluxe Reverb output transformer. This is just a simple case of education getting in the way of knowledge. A list of ingredients key to the Marshall output transformer isn't difficult. See ELECTRONIC PARTS for thoughts on this. Marshall has changed their output transformer a few times over the years, and the result is that people are mortgaging their house to buy a 'Plexi-Panel' example of when Marshall just bought a cheap and plentiful light-duty transformer (instead of letting engineers tell them what was 'needed'). "

Shamelessly copied from : http://www.tone-lizard.com/Marshall_Myths.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mars Hall]

In his book 'The Ultimate Tone', Kevin O'Connor is very surprised that the Marshall output transformer is about the same physical size as a Fender Deluxe Reverb output transformer. This is just a simple case of education getting in the way of knowledge. A list of ingredients key to the Marshall output transformer isn't difficult. See ELECTRONIC PARTS for thoughts on this. Marshall has changed their output transformer a few times over the years, and the result is that people are mortgaging their house to buy a 'Plexi-Panel' example of when Marshall just bought a cheap and plentiful light-duty transformer (instead of letting engineers tell them what was 'needed'). "

Leo Fender "over designed" his transformers, knowing that gigging musicians weren't going to pay any attention to ohm ratings, when adding extension speakers. This might explain why a 50 watt amp and a 22 watt amp have the same size tranny.

I like my Metro OT in my BBri very much. I had no choice but to replace, my original was toast.

[jbzoso2002]

Howdy Jerry, I just upgraded a 1988 JCM 800
Super Lead 100w with a MetroAmp 68' ptp board
w std sozo's and F&T filter caps and left the stock
transformers and Im suprized to say it sounds damn
good, so good Im not going to upgrade the opt.

It sounds very close to my MetroAmp 12000 amp.

Jimmy

[parkhead]

In his book 'The Ultimate Tone', Kevin O'Connor is very surprised that the Marshall output transformer is about the same physical size as a Fender Deluxe Reverb output transformer. This is just a simple case of education getting in the way of knowledge. A list of ingredients key to the Marshall output transformer isn't difficult. See ELECTRONIC PARTS for thoughts on this. Marshall has changed their output transformer a few times over the years, and the result is that people are mortgaging their house to buy a 'Plexi-Panel' example of when Marshall just bought a cheap and plentiful light-duty transformer (instead of letting engineers tell them what was 'needed'). "

Leo Fender "over designed" his transformers, knowing that gigging musicians weren't going to pay any attention to ohm ratings, when adding extension speakers. This might explain why a 50 watt amp and a 22 watt amp have the same size tranny.

I like my Metro OT in my BBri very much. I had no choice but to replace, my original was toast.

A much as Kevin O'connor is the nicest Guy in the world and Quite sharp ....

A Fender Deluxe Deluxe Reverb OT is about half the size of a 50 Watt Marshall and this terrible quote keeps circulating

P

[joey]

Your not stuck with anything! within reason, you can change existing characteristics of an Existing OT with external passive components.

[aquilarosso]

Hi, I recently had a 1987x lent to me by a shop while they were repairing the PT in my 1959RR that burnt out the day after I bought it. The 1987x absolutely rocked, people were saying things like "that is the best sounding Marshall I've ever heard" etc.
I'm not sure if that was just a "good one" or not, but I would not have wanted to change anything. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is what they say, but me being me, I still want to experiment with caps, tubes, transformers, speaker etc, so when they gave me a full refund on the very dead 1959RR, I bought an old '800 series 1987 to use as a test case. . I also can muck about with it and not void the warranty.
I'm putting in a Marstran soon (I paypal'd Bruce the money in NZD by mistake and just had to send a top up, doh!), but I don't expect a huge difference over the Drake, I just think that Bruce's design may just have the edge and be better constructed. Reliability is the main thing I'm looking for in the change, I've had a few modern transformers blow on me now and I don't trust any of them. No theory behind it, just the stats. I had the opportunity to use my refund to buy the full Jimi Hendrix stack they have (still do I think) at 50% off, I didn't trust the thing enough to want to own it (maybe I should have got a Joyce amp). I'll post soon about what difference in tone the Marstran gives my amp.

There is alot of snake oil out there in marketing, but what is more difficult to read through is the mass of misinformation on the internet that snowballs into accepted, but incorrect web theories in some groups.