THE Major/nat. minor scale pattern!!!

[rgalpin]

.a diminished chord has double flat 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7.

that chord would be for instance:
1 b3 b5 bb7
B D F G

right? A, the 7th note, double flatted is G.

[rockstah]

.a diminished chord has double flat 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7.

that chord would be for instance:
1 b3 b5 bb7
B D F G

right? A, the 7th note, double flatted is G.

Bminor 7b5 - seventh chord harmony of c major is B D F A ( 1 b3 b5 b7)
B Dim 7 is B D F Ab ( 1 b3 b5 bb7 )
when ya think about it double flat 7 is the same as a major 6 but with a flat 5 you call it double flat 7.

[rgalpin]

so, the 7th mode has the HALF diminished. the 7th is NOT double flatted.

in contrast to the full diminished which WOULD have a bb7th.

[rockstah]

so, the 7th mode has the HALF diminished. the 7th is NOT double flatted.

in contrast to the full diminished which WOULD have a bb7th.

correct. its all about harmony of the scale so the VII chord in c major is b minor 7b5. this chord comes from the scale itself staring on b and it is spelled as b minor7b5.

locrian scale spelled out is 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. notice it we took the chord tones which are the first, third, 5th and 7th degrees of this scale or mode we get 1 b3 b5 v7- a B minor 7b5 chord. you can do this with all the scale notes. if you go as far as triad chords the harmony is:

c, d minor, e minor, f major, g major, a minor, b diminished or
1 3 5, 1b 3 5, 1 b3 5, 1 3 5, 1 3 5, 1 b3 5, 1 b3 b5.

if you did 7th chords:

c major7, d minor7, e minor7, f major7, g7, a minor7 b minor7b5 or
1 3 5 7, 1b3 5 b7, 1 b3 5 b7, 1 3 5 7, 1 3 5 b7, 1 b3 5 b7, 1 b3 b5 b7.

of course the modes to all the I II II IV V VI VII chords are
ionian, dorian, lydian, phrygian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian
it makes sense of course these modes are in fact what each chord is built from.
its all the same just depending how you look at the scale and its harmony.

Mark

[rgalpin]

the blues twists those rules all over the place... the rules for the 7ths are basically ignored.

c major7, d minor7, e minor7, f major7, g7, a minor7, b minor7b5 or
1 3 5 7, 1 b3 5 b7, 1 b3 5 b7, 1 3 5 7, 1 3 5 b7, 1 b3 5 b7, 1 b3 b5 b7.

I chord (don't hit the major 7th of this fella until we go to V chord)
IV chord (don't hit the major 7th of this old boy until we go back to I)
V7 chord (shooo-weee at least some rule holds up)

any insight into the connection between the blues and the rest of the known universe?

[tonejones]

so, the 7th mode has the HALF diminished. the 7th is NOT double flatted.

in contrast to the full diminished which WOULD have a bb7th.

Yep,

I dig the fully diminished 7th chord though, it's symmetrical...all the notes are exactly 3 frets/half steps apart:

B--D--F--Ab--then B again.

Another cool thing about this chord is that you can use any of the notes as a leading tone/maj. 7th to modulate to another key with ease.

[rgalpin]

so, the 7th mode has the HALF diminished. the 7th is NOT double flatted.

in contrast to the full diminished which WOULD have a bb7th.

Yep,

I dig the fully diminished 7th chord though, it's symmetrical...all the notes are exactly 3 frets/half steps apart:

B--D--F--Ab--then B again.

Another cool thing about this chord is that you can use any of the notes as a leading tone/maj. 7th to modulate to another key with ease.

so, does the fully diminished chord occur naturally anywhere in the scale of chords? or does it exist to help destroy the current key and lead to another?

[rockstah]

i spelled out the chords in the major and minor keys so no.
but if you harmonize scales like melodic minor or even harmonic minor you will find the diminished chords as well as augmented chords.

aeolian being a natural minor scale 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
harmonic minor scale is a natural minor scale with a major 7 so:

harmonic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

if you harmonized this scale building 7th chords u end up with
A minor/major7, B minor7b5, C augmented7, D minor7, E7, F major7, G#dim7. or
1 b3 5 7, 1 b3 b5 b7, 1 3 #5 7, 1 b3 5 b7, 1 3 5 b7, 1 3 5 7, 1 b3 b5 bb7

the blues scale coming from a pentatonic scale which comes from a major scale again, is the addition the b5 to a minor pentatonic scale.

[rgalpin]

harmonic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

is the harmonic minor where you flat the 7th in a descending line but leave the 7th as is in an ascending one?

did you learn your theory in formal training - school? self taught? i read somebody said you went to GIT? that's very cool man. that experience must be a great resource to feed off of.

what i was asking about the basic blues I IV V stuff is based on what a strange mixture of major and minor it is - and then add in the flat 5th . . . there's a world of tension and release going on everywhere you step - i have always wanted to study the theory behind it all - not just "what sounds cool cuz we've heard it a million times." but rather WHY does this sound cool - because if we know the WHY then we can control it and mold it - rather than just mimic it.

[rockstah]

melodic minor is closest to a Dorian mode but has a natural 7 in it so:

Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
melodic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

you might think its also close to a major scale since its the same as but with a b3 but because melodic minor is a Minor scale i look to the closest minor as far as comparing it and its application.

i do believe in classical music it is the strict rule or at least something to be aware of, that ascending with natural minor( aeolian) and descending with melodic minor.

from a jazz take u are looking at this scale to either covering altered chords or implying them. in other words you may have a vamp on E7. basically speaking mixolydian would cover that chord since the chord comes from that mode or scale degree.

mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
dominant chord formula 1 3 5 b7

so you could, and as in a jazz approach, play "outside"... take the listener as far as you can without losing them and on the brink of it then bring them back. tension and release. ( this is usually what sets a listener off to 'its jazz!' because when you think about it rock or pop is all inside notes, all related to the key of the song. jazz is about taking it "out")

example:
for E7... lets say an E7 vamp progression( think james brown) you could play mixolydian or, for example, youcould play the 4th mode of melodic minor.

i call it lydian flat 7 because the fourth mode of melodic minor is very close to a lydian mode but with a flat7 or close to a mixolydian mode with a flat5.
fourth mode of melodic minor is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 - the #4 is the same as a b5 but in this context with E7 we see it as a b5( in a dominant 7 the alterations to the chord would b5,#5,b9, #9)
so as e7 is going by you with the scale are implying it has b5 in it - this creates the "outside" sound.

As for the blues scale it is true that the vocabulary being heard over and over in the history of blues music we get used to the sounds. We can with the understanding of theory figure what is actually causing the tension.
We know that the 5b, the blue note is an alteration of the chord harmony. In other words as A7 is going by and we play the blue note in a A blues scale ( Eb ) we can see and identify it sounds that way because it

[rockstah]

this has conversation has got me thinking about outside stuff.
ill post it here since its really about experiemneting with what we have been talking about and to give an example , hopefully, of playing " outside "

the riff is basically a E Augmented( #5) groove with a major 7 and a flat 7 as well and im treating it like its a E7 groove. the single notes are using major7 and #5 alot as well flat third so there is all kinds of out notes going by.
the big arppegio asending line is a e augmneted 7 chord( 1 3 #5 7)some may not get it and some may be like thats fucking wacky kewl!
give it a listen.. its not rock thats for sure.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInf ... ID=5118094

Mark

[tonejones]

i do believe in classical music it is the strict rule or at least something to be aware of, that ascending with natural minor( aeolian) and descending with melodic minor.

Actually you ascend with melodic minor and descend with natural minor.

To make things even more confusing, in cases where you would dip a little below the root/tonic note and start ascending again (ex. 1 7 6 7 1 2 3 etc.) you don't use the natural minor descending rule unless you go down as far as the 5th.

Now this rule is in classical. In shred usually you would just hear the melodic minor form being used both ascending and descending.

For anyone who reads notation, there's a great scale supplement book by Aaron Shearer (supplement #3 I believe) that explores majors and melodic minors in all keys, and in all positions up thru 9th position......

[tonejones]

aeolian being a natural minor scale 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
harmonic minor scale is a natural minor scale with a major 7 so:

harmonic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

The origin of this scale is easy to see when you recognize this was done so they could use a dominant 7 chord in a minor key.

Diatonically a 5 chord in A nat. minor would be e g b d: an e min 7.

Raise that g to g# a voila!!!!

[tonejones]

[quote="rockstah"]the riff is basically a E Augmented( #5) groove with a major 7 and a flat 7 as well and im treating it like its a E7 groove. the single notes are using major7 and #5 alot as well flat third so there is all kinds of out notes going by.
the big arppegio asending line is a e augmneted 7 chord( 1 3 #5 7)some may not get it and some may be like thats fucking wacky kewl!
give it a listen.. its not rock thats for sure. [quote]

I love it Mark!!!!

I've always been a fan of any rock that's just straight ahead rippin' and then dips into this type of thing before it's over with. Rip the audience's face off all the while taking them to the outer edges and back again....

I guess that's why I digeth on some prog rock as much as I do.....

Very kewl!!!!

[rockstah]

aeolian being a natural minor scale 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
harmonic minor scale is a natural minor scale with a major 7 so:

harmonic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

The origin of this scale is easy to see when you recognize this was done so they could use a dominant 7 chord in a minor key.

Diatonically a 5 chord in A nat. minor would be e g b d: an e min 7.

Raise that g to g# a voila!!!!

indeed +1