Phase Inverter Tube
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- syscokid
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Phase Inverter Tube
I recieved my 50 watt Plexi Kit yesterday, and today I started on Greg's Great Adventure. I got as far as installing the pots, but after 12 hours, I think I had to call it a day. This stuff is very addicting...
Anyways, looking ahead, I noticed that the 3 Mullard Reissue 12ax7's that came with the kit have no specs, or special markings on them. I was under the assumption that it is best to have a balanced tube in the PI socket. I'm ready for some more education on this...
Anyways, looking ahead, I noticed that the 3 Mullard Reissue 12ax7's that came with the kit have no specs, or special markings on them. I was under the assumption that it is best to have a balanced tube in the PI socket. I'm ready for some more education on this...
Last edited by syscokid on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When I'm on stage and first plug in, and I feel a rush of air in my balls... That's when I know my guitar is sounding good!" -Leslie West
- demonufo
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
The design of the Marshall PI (long-tailed pair) is by nature unbalanced anyway, then roughly taken into account for later in the circuit.
Balanced PI's and matched power tubes are a bit of a myth really.
You could have a unbalanced PI that would actually balance better in the circuit due to the nature of the circuit, and would probably sound even better than the perfectly balanced tube.
And again, unmatched power tubes CAN sound better than matched for similar reasons. I usually don't worry about mismatches of up to about 5mA.
Panic not, and enjoy the build
George's instructions are pretty top!
Balanced PI's and matched power tubes are a bit of a myth really.
You could have a unbalanced PI that would actually balance better in the circuit due to the nature of the circuit, and would probably sound even better than the perfectly balanced tube.
And again, unmatched power tubes CAN sound better than matched for similar reasons. I usually don't worry about mismatches of up to about 5mA.
Panic not, and enjoy the build
George's instructions are pretty top!
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!
83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!
83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!
- Flames1950
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Yeah, nobody on those classic records went berserk trying to find a balanced PI tube or matched power tubes.......they threw 'em in and the power tubes were lucky to even get bias checked.........
- syscokid
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Muchas Gracias...
Last edited by syscokid on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"When I'm on stage and first plug in, and I feel a rush of air in my balls... That's when I know my guitar is sounding good!" -Leslie West
- Freedom
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
I see you've chosen the "right" color...
Have fun with it...
Have fun with it...
Freedom of Music <=> Music of Freedom
- demonufo
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
No he hasn't, it ain't purple, so it ain't right!Freedom wrote:I see you've chosen the "right" color...
Have fun with it...
Seriously though, nice choice.
I really do get tired of black.
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!
83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!
83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!
- axeman
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Phase inverter - a circuit that generates two output signals, each 180 degrees out of phase with the other. This is a bit of a misnomer, since it does more than just invert the phase of a signal, it actually generates two out of phase signals.
Q: Do I need to replace my driver tube every time I replace my power tubes?
A: No. This is an "old wive's tale" propagated by the tube vendors who want to sell you more tubes. The "driver" tube, or phase inverter as it is more appropriately known, is under no more stress than any of the other preamp tubes. The output stage of a normal guitar amplifier is AC-coupled, class AB1 or class A1. The "1" suffix indicates that the tubes do not draw grid current during any portion of the input cycle. A "2" suffix indicates grid current during some portion of the cycle, as in class AB2. Since almost all guitar amps are class AB1 or A1 (it takes a DC-coupled cathode-follower or interstage transformer to be able to drive the power tubes into the positive grid region), the phase inverter does not have to supply any current to the grids (it can't really source current anyway - it only sinks current through the plate load resistor, which is quite large, and inherently limits the plate current to a few mA). The AC coupling (capacitor coupling) between the phase inverter and the output tubes precludes any flow of grid current anyway. The output tube grids will merely act as a grid clamp, shifting the bias downward as the output is driven harder. This in no way stresses the phase inverter tube. In addition, the plate load resistors and the bias current in a typical phase inverter are identical to the preamp stage values, indicating that they are operating in the same area, dissipation-wise, so they cannot be "wearing out" any faster. In fact, the reverb driver tube on a typical amplifier is dissipating more power than the phase inverter, and should be replaced more often, if anything. Don't be misled by the higher plate voltage on the phase inverter either, because the cathode is usually sitting somewhere around 30V - 100V above ground, which lowers the plate-to-cathode voltage by that amount. The plate-to-cathode voltage is what determines the power dissipation of the tube, not the absolute plate voltage.
The Marshall/Fender phase inverter is commonly known as a "long-tail pair", or "Schmitt" type phase inverter, or phase splitter (actually, the original Schmitt inverter was a differential pair with a large "tail" resistor; the "standard" guitar amplifier phase inverter is a self-biased version of this circuit that works better with positive-only power supplies and ground-referenced inputs).
Following is a schematic diagram of a typical phase inverter found in some guitar amplifiers:
http://www.aikenamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The basic circuit is commonly known as a "differential amplifier", which means that it amplifies the voltage difference between the two grid inputs. Technically, it is a differential in, differential out amplifier, because it has differential inputs on the two grids as well as differential outputs on the two plates (the two plate signals produce the same voltage signal, but one is inverted, or 180 degrees out of phase, with respect to the other).
It should be noted that there are actually three inputs used in this type of phase splitter. The first input is the obvious one, the left side of C1. The second input (the lower end of C2) is useful as a feedback input, a reverb or effects return input, or as a second channel input. In the circuit shown above, the second input is used as a feedback return input, taking the signal off the junction of the feedback divider.
The third input is not so obvious; it is the lower end of R6. If a signal is input at this point, the phase splitter will produce an output signal on each output that is in phase with the other, rather than 180 degrees out of phase, and also in phase with the signal input at the lower end of R6. This means that if a signal of equal phase is applied to the first input (C1) and the third input (R6), it will subtract from the out of phase output (R2) and add to the in phase output (R1). Likewise, if an equal phase signal is applied to the second input (C2), and the third input (R6), it will subtract from the in phase output and add to the out of phase output (this is because the out of phase output is actually in phase for the signal applied to the second input, C2, and the in phase output is out of phase). This third input is useful for balancing the feedback signal by subtracting from the in phase output and adding to the out of phase output in order to compensate the unequal gains to each output from the feedback input. The gain is much less than the gain into the first and second inputs.
The two outputs provide (nearly) identical signals, except for a 180 degree phase difference between them. This is exactly the type of signal needed to drive a push-pull amplifier, so this circuit is commonly seen in higher-power guitar amplifiers.
http://www.aikenamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Q: Do I need to replace my driver tube every time I replace my power tubes?
A: No. This is an "old wive's tale" propagated by the tube vendors who want to sell you more tubes. The "driver" tube, or phase inverter as it is more appropriately known, is under no more stress than any of the other preamp tubes. The output stage of a normal guitar amplifier is AC-coupled, class AB1 or class A1. The "1" suffix indicates that the tubes do not draw grid current during any portion of the input cycle. A "2" suffix indicates grid current during some portion of the cycle, as in class AB2. Since almost all guitar amps are class AB1 or A1 (it takes a DC-coupled cathode-follower or interstage transformer to be able to drive the power tubes into the positive grid region), the phase inverter does not have to supply any current to the grids (it can't really source current anyway - it only sinks current through the plate load resistor, which is quite large, and inherently limits the plate current to a few mA). The AC coupling (capacitor coupling) between the phase inverter and the output tubes precludes any flow of grid current anyway. The output tube grids will merely act as a grid clamp, shifting the bias downward as the output is driven harder. This in no way stresses the phase inverter tube. In addition, the plate load resistors and the bias current in a typical phase inverter are identical to the preamp stage values, indicating that they are operating in the same area, dissipation-wise, so they cannot be "wearing out" any faster. In fact, the reverb driver tube on a typical amplifier is dissipating more power than the phase inverter, and should be replaced more often, if anything. Don't be misled by the higher plate voltage on the phase inverter either, because the cathode is usually sitting somewhere around 30V - 100V above ground, which lowers the plate-to-cathode voltage by that amount. The plate-to-cathode voltage is what determines the power dissipation of the tube, not the absolute plate voltage.
The Marshall/Fender phase inverter is commonly known as a "long-tail pair", or "Schmitt" type phase inverter, or phase splitter (actually, the original Schmitt inverter was a differential pair with a large "tail" resistor; the "standard" guitar amplifier phase inverter is a self-biased version of this circuit that works better with positive-only power supplies and ground-referenced inputs).
Following is a schematic diagram of a typical phase inverter found in some guitar amplifiers:
http://www.aikenamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The basic circuit is commonly known as a "differential amplifier", which means that it amplifies the voltage difference between the two grid inputs. Technically, it is a differential in, differential out amplifier, because it has differential inputs on the two grids as well as differential outputs on the two plates (the two plate signals produce the same voltage signal, but one is inverted, or 180 degrees out of phase, with respect to the other).
It should be noted that there are actually three inputs used in this type of phase splitter. The first input is the obvious one, the left side of C1. The second input (the lower end of C2) is useful as a feedback input, a reverb or effects return input, or as a second channel input. In the circuit shown above, the second input is used as a feedback return input, taking the signal off the junction of the feedback divider.
The third input is not so obvious; it is the lower end of R6. If a signal is input at this point, the phase splitter will produce an output signal on each output that is in phase with the other, rather than 180 degrees out of phase, and also in phase with the signal input at the lower end of R6. This means that if a signal of equal phase is applied to the first input (C1) and the third input (R6), it will subtract from the out of phase output (R2) and add to the in phase output (R1). Likewise, if an equal phase signal is applied to the second input (C2), and the third input (R6), it will subtract from the in phase output and add to the out of phase output (this is because the out of phase output is actually in phase for the signal applied to the second input, C2, and the in phase output is out of phase). This third input is useful for balancing the feedback signal by subtracting from the in phase output and adding to the out of phase output in order to compensate the unequal gains to each output from the feedback input. The gain is much less than the gain into the first and second inputs.
The two outputs provide (nearly) identical signals, except for a 180 degree phase difference between them. This is exactly the type of signal needed to drive a push-pull amplifier, so this circuit is commonly seen in higher-power guitar amplifiers.
http://www.aikenamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- axeman
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
demonufo wrote:The design of the Marshall PI (long-tailed pair) is by nature unbalanced anyway, then roughly taken into account for later in the circuit.
Balanced PI's and matched power tubes are a bit of a myth really.
You could have a unbalanced PI that would actually balance better in the circuit due to the nature of the circuit, and would probably sound even better than the perfectly balanced tube.
And again, unmatched power tubes CAN sound better than matched for similar reasons. I usually don't worry about mismatches of up to about 5mA.Panic not, and enjoy the build
George's instructions are pretty top!
If all EL34 for example are different, and we only have one bias voltage for output tubes biasing, which tube do we set the bias to? If one EL34 is biases correctly, then the others must be biased incorrectly. And if the spread of there characteristics is great for the tubes you have, then you could have a situation were one EL34 is biased ok, another is virtually biased off, another could be hard on. The amp would sound terrible with this biasing/tube arrangement. You could set the bias voltage to the average of their characteristics, if the spread is not to far apart. This would be ok, but the best solution is to use matched tubes. Only a matched set of tubes will give the maximum output power with minimum unwanted distortion and noise, i.e. give the best tone.
- syscokid
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
No...It really is Purple. The flash picture from this camera makes the Purple more "Blu-er" than it really is!demonufo wrote:No he hasn't, it ain't purple, so it ain't right!Freedom wrote:I see you've chosen the "right" color...
Have fun with it...
Seriously though, nice choice.
I really do get tired of black.
Having loads of fun:
"When I'm on stage and first plug in, and I feel a rush of air in my balls... That's when I know my guitar is sounding good!" -Leslie West
-
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
That Sam Adams looks ready to jump!
Looks like you spent your weekend well. Great job!
Looks like you spent your weekend well. Great job!
- Freedom
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Yeap, thats why i mentioned you got the "right" color, mine is purple too and it always seems blueish when photographed...syscokid wrote:No...It really is Purple. The flash picture from this camera makes the Purple more "Blu-er" than it really is!
Freedom of Music <=> Music of Freedom
- Big Mike
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Lookin good! I'm a few parts away from starting mine soon.
Metroamp kit JMP50 - CM OT
Metroamp JTM45 turned JMP50 w/Classictone OT
Marshall 2550 Jubilee
Powered by Thorn and Kauer guitars
Scumback Speakers
Metroamp JTM45 turned JMP50 w/Classictone OT
Marshall 2550 Jubilee
Powered by Thorn and Kauer guitars
Scumback Speakers
- syscokid
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Need some help here. I'm posting a new topic: "First test results"
"When I'm on stage and first plug in, and I feel a rush of air in my balls... That's when I know my guitar is sounding good!" -Leslie West
- demonufo
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Re: Phase Inverter Tube
Horsecrap.axeman wrote: Only a matched set of tubes will give the maximum output power with minimum unwanted distortion and noise, i.e. give the best tone.
I tend to bias by ear anyway, within limits. I'll agree with the first part of the statement, and if we were talking about a hi-fi amp, I'd agree with the second part (ie give the best tone).
But we're not, and I don't.
People really do worry waaaay too much about matching.
And for certain I'd much rather a set of mullards/siemens/tesla's with a 5mA spread than a brand new set of JJ's that are perfectly matched to within .5mA in ANY scenario, guitar amps, or hi-fi.
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!
83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!
83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot!