ITO Tones rockstah posted

[wjamflan]

Here it is: http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=25608

[vh junkie]

Great stuff GG!
What are thinking for the replacement cap? A tantalum?

Not sure its relevant, bu those crazy muthas over in the Marshall forum SIR thread claim they can get the cocked wah sound by shielding signal wires to plate voltages instead of ground!

[Good Guest]

The only thing I will add is that I believe Dave F. talked about eq in post production a while back. We also had spectrum analysis that showed a huge spike in the 10-12K range if memory serves. I'll have to dig up that post....

Yeah a boost in those ranges is for sheen or final polishing touch and is a popular mastering technique and only by 3 to 6 db this is no where the extreme level of the 1.2khz...above 12k pretty well falls of our hearing range and it's not uncommon for frequency's to be added over that but they call it air...it all makes a differance in the final product.

Great stuff GG!
What are thinking for the replacement cap? A tantalum?

Not sure its relevant, bu those crazy muthas over in the Marshall forum SIR thread claim they can get the cocked wah sound by shielding signal wires to plate voltages instead of ground!

Any cap at those tiny voltage levels will do... shielding to a high voltage sounds like inducing a hum...perhaps a higher harmonic of the hum ..60hz 120hz etc..600hz would be really audible...and cocky sounding...why don't they just get a wah wah? Here I think and design power supply's in the ultra sonic range (75Khz) to eliminate all hum and oscillations and they are trying to induce it....no wonder no one wants a new marshall.

I'll have to go check out what they are doing there sounds pretty wacky..

[leadguy]

The clips can't really be compared because there are too many differences.

Ed's is a result of 2 mics and their positions and Ted's EQing etc and the variac, Echoplex and phase are all missing from Rockstah and Ralles parts and there are other differences as well.
Ralle probably needs to lower his pickup a bit as well.
I mean maybe a Ed boot from 1977 could be used as a bit fairer comparison with Rockstah and Ralle but even then there are too many variables.

If the MXR theory is right than these frequency spikes must be on the VH1 Eruption because we have it from Rudy that Ed did use the MXR on Eruption for VH1.

I have a 70s MXR EQ in front of me and a DOD Bass EQ from the 70s or 80s in front of me as well.

The MXR main frequency boosts just doubles the earlier frequency in a binary number system way.

100 200 400 800 1600 3200

The DOD does the same but is one notch lower for Bass

50 100 200 400 800 1600 3200

both of these circuits are just cheap active filters based on opamps and there is nothing special about them and they are/were used on countless records and live gigs.
I remember these type of circuits from old 70s Electronic books and they were used in home DIY Hi-Fi Electronics projects and are all in the Active Filter Cookbook by Don Lancaster who covers these circuits in depth and that book came out in November 1975 but of course they were around before then.

[Good Guest]

I don't care how many mics you have pointed at a cab that 1.2 khz spike is there and very intentional for that one tune...and in every version thus discovered....who said eruption? Or ATBL ? Were just talking about this one tune...If Ed did use a mxr eq on eruption there is nothing to say he did or didn't use a differant slider..with yet another odd ball value...I wouldn't expect to find a 1.2 khz boost..just because it's in one song.

They don't use a binary system to create frequency boosts ..it's all based on OCTAVES the way they have the frequency spaced from each other with the "Q' controlled by design also. You don't crank it up a notch or down ...it's a design particular to the octave spacing beween the frequency's you choose...and designed intentionally to be spaced that way..binary and notch

Yes there are eq's that could be used at the mixing desk ..hell the mic pre's used back then even had had places to insert eq's to shape the tone also, but I think we've discerned that the "Sting" happens in the amp not at the mixing console..just listen to live clips with no sunset sound magic.

The idea of using opamps as "Gyrators " is cheap but accurate and has advantages over what was previously used ..which were actual coils /inductors of complex values and hence more expensive...and found in many an ancient urei artifacts and THEY even switched too op amp gyrators to simulate inductance. So wether they appeared in magazines doesn't say much... look new invention...

The proof is in the pudding..change the cap and take a crack at it... especially with all those cheap eq's you got laying around looking pretty..

That's one thing I like about EVH ..he didn't follow the rules..if he wanted a frequency boosted that was between the two he was definatley one to make it happen and he made it happen as cheap as possible...actually he did say that too.." he would get things custom made and made as cheaply as possible".

[leadguy]

The frequencies just happen to double in a binary way, that's all I said about the EQ's and they are just cheap common circuits used in stacks of other stuff.

[plexified]

Cool stuff for sure.

A few comments ....

Could their be a relationship with the mic freq curve?

Cranked vh1 through a stereo pwr amp into a correct 4 x 12 will yield get you close to
the raw amp tone for reference .

verb , the same core tone is washed with various amounts of verb on vhI .

you can reset the song order , eruption being most wet to least wet and you hear a
obvious effect on perceived eq .

[leadguy]

...

[vanhalen5150]

Looked at my 6 band last night. You have to desolder the slider to remove the current cap. A bit of surgery for sure.

[Good Guest]

Cool stuff for sure.

A few comments ....

Could their be a relationship with the mic freq curve?

Cranked vh1 through a stereo pwr amp into a correct 4 x 12 will yield get you close to
the raw amp tone for reference .

verb , the same core tone is washed with various amounts of verb on vhI .

you can reset the song order , eruption being most wet to least wet and you hear a
obvious effect on perceived eq .

The frequency response of the sm57 is pretty flat till about 2khz then rises to 5Khz..then starts a gentle roll off till about 8-9Khz then dramaticall starts falling ...that's why it is so good for gutar, cause at 5khz is where the speakers and cab roll off dramatically..like falling off a cliff.

Yeah the verb is always something to consider as it is so much a part of vh1 , but this spike is even in live clips and all versions ..if it was just say in the studio iso I would think twice. But remember were just looking at" I'm the one" here..eruption has too many variables going on at the same time..Eq, Phaser, univox ..the phase alone would be a problem as it produces a narrow notch (cut in frequency) sweeping over the entire range ..the opposite of a wah..and not just one notch but 2 ..so a spec analysis would only work on a phaseless guitar signal...which is the beginning parts.

But Plexified you got me thinking on a neat test ....we know how a cab/freq rolloff begins at 5khz so to get a more accurate iso of Ed's raw amp tone ..one would low pass at the same slope as a cab and then do a spectrum analysis..pretty good idea plexified.

EDIT: to say the rolloff spec analysis just confirms the 1.2 khz...and if you reduce the 1.2 khz the sting somewhat disappears but the harmonics created by the amp remain..pretty well confirming pre boost eq.

[Good Guest]

Not sure its relevant, bu those crazy muthas over in the Marshall forum SIR thread claim they can get the cocked wah sound by shielding signal wires to plate voltages instead of ground!

OK I see wht they are doing but the pics are so blurry that there basing it on kinda makes you wonder if it actually what you see.

Anyways what is happening if real is by making the plate the shield they are just moving the plate right to the 33k input resistor...there would be a dummy capacitance setup between the grid and plate...and the voltage and current are reduced somewhat by the 100k resistor at the plate...it's not like they are tied to the mains...risky but whatever floats there boat I guess..not for me ..I like ground is ground all the world round and keeping it that way..floating grounds can be dangerous.

[rgorke]

The wah appears to be pretty "cocked" to me and taped to stay that way.

[T.J.Fuller]

I know this thread has gone the direction of solely the MXR eq being the remaining missing link.

...and I do not mean to down play that at all.......( Good Guest and others info about the Mxr has been great )

but, as posted earlier, I couldn't quite shake the whole - why is Ed's spectrum curve so smooth or balanced out vs. Marks clip.

for lack of a better description - could 2 different mic'd speakers help smooth out the peaks and valleys of Ed's overall clip.

Now I do believe the MXR lends to the different stand out spikes, Good Guest and someone else proved that.

but,I bring this up because I found my copies of the 2 RWTD clips - Dave Friedman posted along time ago.

One is marked Celestion - the other is labeled JBL

There is no way after listening to those clips that it is a Celestion miced outer cone and another Celestion mic'd center.

I mean ...the JBL clip you can hear the damn aluminum dust cap in the clip !

but, what also stands out is when you a/b the clips - the Celestion clip has a , let's say Blue color to it
and that JBL clip ( which has to be variaced or it would pierce your ears ) sounds definitely RED

mix those 2 together and it is one mean PURPLE tone !

...do I need to post these for a TONAL re-evaluation ??????

[Good Guest]

I know this thread has gone the direction of solely the MXR eq being the remaining missing link.

...and I do not mean to down play that at all.......( Good Guest and others info about the Mxr has been great )

but, as posted earlier, I couldn't quite shake the whole - why is Ed's spectrum curve so smooth or balanced out vs. Marks clip.

for lack of a better description - could 2 different mic'd speakers help smooth out the peaks and valleys of Ed's overall clip.

Now I do believe the MXR lends to the different stand out spikes, Good Guest and someone else proved that.

but,I bring this up because I found my copies of the 2 RWTD clips - Dave Friedman posted along time ago.

One is marked Celestion - the other is labeled JBL

There is no way after listening to those clips that it is a Celestion miced outer cone and another Celestion mic'd center.

I mean ...the JBL clip you can hear the damn aluminum dust cap in the clip !

but, what also stands out is when you a/b the clips - the Celestion clip has a , let's say Blue color to it
and that JBL clip ( which has to be variaced or it would pierce your ears ) sounds definitely RED

mix those 2 together and it is one mean PURPLE tone !

...do I need to post these for a TONAL re-evaluation ??????

The problem with those 2 clips are they both have echo on them and who knows what else...maybe even some eq on one or both...making it impossible to say that's a pure undoctored sound of a celestian or jbl...just 2 studio enhanced clips that when mixed together make the tone of RWTD....But never the less you get to hear THE amp, the echo and anything else he may be using on them. They are really good in that respect and when you hear the guitar hero iso track you really get to hear how the studio magic takes over with all the compression and reverb you can shake as tick at...you couldn't add any more even if you wanted.

[leadguy]

One is marked Celestion - the other is labeled JBL

There is no way after listening to those clips that it is a Celestion miced outer cone and another Celestion mic'd center.

I mean ...the JBL clip you can hear the damn aluminum dust cap in the clip !

Or the mic on the JBL labeled clip is so close to the centre of the Celestion cone (just about touching it) that it ends up sounding like that, speaker distortion sound pressure levels etc.

The mic on the Celestion labeled clip sounds more distant and far away to my ears, picking up more of the lower frequencies.

Just put your ear right up close and on the middle of a cd player speaker and then put your ear a bit back and on the edge of the cd player speaker and tilt the speaker away a bit as well, these are roughly the 2 micing positions.

The differences between the 2 clips are pretty obviously due to position differences of the 2 mics.

The JBL labeled clip is pretty obviously a mic up very close right on the middle of the speaker.
The Celestion labeled clip is pretty obviously a mic backed off and off to the side of the speaker.

The JBL labeled clip is louder in volume and picking up more high frequency content and is more powerful due to picking up the speakers energy full on.
The Celestion labeled clip is softer in volume and picking up more low frequency content and is less powerful due to picking up the speakers energy at more of a distance and direction away.

Mix the 2 clips together and the result is a balance of high and low frequency content.

Just say there is a JBL and a Celestion being miced, then how would they be miced.

JBL on the centre, Celestion back and on the side, could be but I really have doubts about that as I would expect 2 tracks from 2 different mic positions on the JBL and 2 tracks from 2 different mic tracks on the Celestion.

Another thing is that what Ed uses live is not neseccarily what gets used in the studio.
Using JBL's live does not automatically mean that they are used in the studio.

These are very loud clips as well.

I don't know how true it is but I've read that Joe Walshes guitar tech was at Sunset Sound for something while Ed was recording VH1 and he said that Ed was so loud that he could hear Ed outside the studio.