late 70's Flying V rebuild

[awangotango]

1st coat




@toneslinger.....the 'shelf' of the older V's varies/ some are as much as 1/2" off the body with a 0 degree neck tilt and others seem to have a 1 to 1.5degree or so neck tilt and 1/4" or so shelf. It all works out the same at the bridge more or less.....In my case, I have the 1.5 degree tilt and so it allowed me to add the 1/4" top. The bridge was set quite high prior so adding the top actually was needed. Also looks cooler with a smaller shelf and lower bridge. I've already had the tunomatic on and strung up. With these old frets, the bridge is pretty much set to the minimum (basically touching the top) but it just makes it. With a refret this will be even more perfect. Regarding tone, this has the classic V solid mahog tone. All midrange. Absolutely no low end and very little top 'sparkle'. No detuned chugga chugga with cookie monster lyrics on top with this V. This is old school midrange sweet/raunch though a stock plexi. Just as it should be and what I want out of a V... I don't believe the top lam did much either + of - to the sound. If anything it gives the tone a bit of zing up top. All in all I'm happy with the rebuild and am out of the woods in terms of effing anything up. The patch is tight, the bridge is located correct and working on an ebony headstock veneer and then final paint



regarding ken and the fibers. He basically says the old growth trees had longer fibers and so the resultant cone ended up having a higher ratio of wood/glue whereas newer fast growth trees result in more glue in the paper cone.....I would think a hemp cone would have a totally different sound because the fibers are totally different. but i'm sure a killer cone could be made with hemp, but not one to recreate an old celestion exactly. I've never found a really great recreation of the old celestions in any case. The closest I ever had was those made by Jim mcgourtyat alien. But to my ears, nothing sounds like the real thing for whatever reason(s). Same with pickups, tubes and transformers. There's just no way to clone anything. Fact of life.

[Lefty Lou]

From "A Broun Sound" re: Tone Tubby speakers

What's the difference between Hempcone and a paper cone?
The Hempcone produces more frequencies then you have ever heard out of a paper cone. It has more bass response, better mids and a sweeter high range - unlike a paper cone's shrill highs and lack of true bass response. There is no cone cry or ghost notes with the Hempcone. The Hempcone also loves power. It increases the 20 watt paper cone Tone Tubby speaker to a 40 watt speaker.

Is there a break in-period?
We think they sound great right out of the box but, like any speaker (or a pair of shoes) they get better with time. Any signal, guitar, music, pink noise etc. will speed up the break-in period.

Are there different versions of the Hempcone?
We have evolved (fine tuned) to three different 12" Hempcones: H1 Original Hempcone. H1E Our original Hempcone with an Enzyme for extended highs. H1EDD Same as the H1E but "dipped" for even more highs, while maintaining the fullness and smoothness of our original Hempcones. H1E is now our standard Hempcone in all our speakers.  Our other 2 - 12" Hempcones are available.

Why are the Tone Tubby Cabinets made with a semi-open back?
The Hempcone likes to breath and works at it's optimum when it is not sealed in the cabinet. For closed back applications the Ceramic Hempcone Tone Tubbies seem to work best.

Will they fit in my combo?
The 12" Alnico Tone Tubby measures 6.5" with the can on and 6" with the can removed. The 10" Alnico Tubb measures 5.5" with the can on and 5" with the can removed. The can is attached with a center slot bolt and glue. The Ceramic 12" is 5&1/8" deep.

Can you recone any other speakers with the Hempcone?
Yes, some but not all. We can only do speakers where the cone fits. For guitar, these are: Vox Blues and Bulldogs, Celestion Vintage 30's and Black Shadows, Weber 12's and the JBL 120's. For Bass we can do the 15" D140 and 10" SWR, Eden and Eminence.

[Lefty Lou]

I have a G12M Greenback and an original Vox/Celestion Silver Bell that were both reconed by A Broun Sound and are in my custom red tolex Marshall Bluesbreaker combo cabinet. Both speakers are beefed up with the Tone Tubby kits to about 40 watts/speaker. Very Cool...........

[Lefty Lou]

And now, back to your Veetar....................

[awangotango]

hey, i'm as pro hemp as anyone, but lack of low end and cone cry is half the reason I love the cheap old celestions ! When it comes to guitar sound, those who like 'on the edge' sound like it's about to explode do not want overbuilt transformers and speakers that 'behave' or represent all frequencies. It's eqivalent to eliminating feedback. Some would call that progress, some wouldn't. The tone i'm after is found through cheaply made transformers (old dagnall and drake), under-designed amps (plexi), incapable speakers pushed to their breaking point, and miswound pickups. That's the only way to get the old tone and i've tried everything else to get it. That being said, I have no beef with hemp cones and I'm sure I could use them to get a killer tone very close to the old tone of yesterday but chopping the tone off at the knees, getting rid of low end and 3 gain stages is THE KEY to old late 60-'s - early 80's rock tones. It also leaves that freq spectrum open for the bass player and kick drum.

for reference, schenker's tone has zero bass. and while it appears eddie's tone has low end it really doesnt, it has a robust low mid emphasis but very little low end. Same with old cream era clapton and even kossoff, who used a bass amp and speakers really has a MID dominant tone with not alot of low end as we think of it today....but of all marshall tones, the old jtm45-100 does have the most low end chuggy tone and the old 50w the least, which is why i prefer the 50w

[Lefty Lou]

hey, i'm as pro hemp as anyone, but lack of low end and cone cry is half the reason I love the cheap old celestions ! When it comes to guitar sound, those who like 'on the edge' sound like it's about to explode do not want overbuilt transformers and speakers that 'behave' or represent all frequencies. It's eqivalent to eliminating feedback. Some would call that progress, some wouldn't. The tone i'm after is found through cheaply made transformers (old dagnall and drake), under-designed amps (plexi), incapable speakers pushed to their breaking point, and miswound pickups. That's the only way to get the old tone and i've tried everything else to get it. That being said, I have no beef with hemp cones and I'm sure I could use them to get a killer tone very close to the old tone of yesterday but chopping the tone off at the knees, getting rid of low end and 3 gain stages is THE KEY to old late 60-'s - early 80's rock tones. It also leaves that freq spectrum open for the bass player and kick drum.

That's where guitar, amp, and outboard EQ come in. Although it's true that excessive bass frequencies hitting the front end of a guitar amp are responsible for the flab, and muddiness that is experienced with amps such as the Mesa Boogie Mark I combo (ala Carlos Santana), citing Gil Ayan's Smooth & Slim pedal as the answer to that problem. I'm not trying to push TT speakers here, just pointing out Ken Fisher's analogy of old Celestion speaker cones being composed of longer wood cellulose fibers with less glue should bear a close or similar enough (resemblance/composition) to longer hemp fibers with less glue as used in TT speakers.

for reference, schenker's tone has zero bass. and while it appears eddie's tone has low end it really doesnt, it has a robust low mid emphasis but very little low end. Same with old cream era clapton and even kossoff, who used a bass amp and speakers really has a MID dominant tone with not alot of low end as we think of it today....but of all marshall tones, the old jtm45-100 does have the most low end chuggy tone and the old 50w the least, which is why i prefer the 50w

Thing is, I'm no longer limited by excessive or lacking bass frequencies in my sound as I'll use the Ayan Smooth and Slim if the bass is excessive. If the bass is lacking, I'll use guitar, amp, or outboard EQ if necessary. Gary Moore's sound is what I aspire to so, when I use my Marshall 1960A cab w/G12T-75 Celestions, some would say there is too much bass, which is entirely untrue. I run a JTM45/50 head through the cab with a Les Paul and a Keeley modded Boss Blues Driver BD-2 and the sound is "ALL" Gary.

[awangotango]

I like the cut 'o your jib lefty. you have the fire for tone search in your direction, to express what you've got to say. same here in a different direction. This to me is a HEAVY TONE. a single'ish coil V into a dialed down master or medium gain plexi. The clean and mean is all there at the same time in the same proportion. Just enough cut to slay and enough warmth to reach the womens. the older i gets the less gain i need to get the riffs accross in a small club with no PA, straight from the cab into the room is a spiritual thing. these are low quality vids, but Imagine this in a small club at killer loud decibels and you'll see why I need the bass cut. The bass and kick drum comes across when there's some room to breath and when your drummer knows how to use the kick to keep melody and play for the song like brian downey, herman rarebell etc, instead of beat only, it's a beautiful thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPD9HHwyhE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6XcYa24PKQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eou3HM6QLfk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HXHETUYoKQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2cBNGW9p3o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbj_gSIZDFk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylSHhSRfn7Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdqwR0ISPDE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaJMRiydnvI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuejL6m_mlM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5L8RrphXRg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfmI2mwhFFs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lefty Lou]

I like the cut 'o your jib lefty. you have the fire for tone search in your direction, to express what you've got to say. same here in a different direction. This to me is a HEAVY TONE. a single'ish coil V into a dialed down master or medium gain plexi. The clean and mean is all there at the same time in the same proportion. Just enough cut to slay and enough warmth to reach the womens. the older i gets the less gain i need to get the riffs accross in a small club with no PA, straight from the cab into the room is a spiritual thing. these are low quality vids, but Imagine this in a small club at killer loud decibels and you'll see why I need the bass cut. The bass and kick drum comes across when there's some room to breath and when your drummer knows how to use the kick to keep melody and play for the song like brian downey, herman rarebell etc, instead of beat only, it's a beautiful thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPD9HHwyhE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6XcYa24PKQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eou3HM6QLfk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HXHETUYoKQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2cBNGW9p3o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbj_gSIZDFk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylSHhSRfn7Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdqwR0ISPDE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaJMRiydnvI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuejL6m_mlM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5L8RrphXRg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfmI2mwhFFs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks awangotango, you're not so bad yourself buddy. When you say, "a single'ish coil V" are you referring to a single A5 Humbucker or an A5 P-90, in a Gibson V? I still love the old classic rock & roll we speak of here but I don't listen to it as actively as I once used to. I remember when I was around 26 or 27, and it was kind of like overnight, I just stopped being into groups like Ozzy, Dio, Judas Priest, etc. It was kind of like, "been there, done that and time to move on". What turned me off about some of the groups I liked and listened to was their references to "Satan" in about everything they do (or did). As Hendrix might have said about those groups, "Now there's your real gimmick". If an individual or a group is good enough they don't need gimmicks. It was more so a maturing of my musical tastes, just look at guys like Alex Skolnick and Gary Moore who have moved away from that genre.

I've got a buddy who is a phenomenal jazz guitar player (he's opened for George Benson and Larry Coryell). His name is Maurice, and he's taught me more about letting the guitar breathe in a mix and not cluttering up the song. The problem with a lot of musicians and groups is that they are so caught up in "being seen" and "being heard" that the song suffers. It's not whatever the song calls for, or "for the sake of the song" with those individuals. There are indeed many dynamics when it comes to differing venues, and the physical dimensions of a band.

Just for shits and grins, should you ever come across an Ayan Smooth & Slim pedal, buy it and use it in your rig to see how a innocuous filter circuit can so radically change your sound for the better especially under "volumetric" conditions.

[awangotango]

I hear ya, I'm not down with satan at all either and I hardly listen to lyrics. Just talking 'bout tone. I'll check that pedal. Basically it's all about EQ in the end and i've used an EQ pedal in the past to shape tone but by using all the parts (greenback,paf,old mahogny, plexi) i can 'eq' the tone with each of those and the end tone is more complex and musical for me than relying on the EQ pedal to do work. It's about getting all those ingedients to jive and keep the gain moderate, that is the tricky part and why I stick with the original gear. I know how they fit together and am more familiar with it's proven track record. I've only been working on my tone for 27 years. It's basically the same tone i've always loved. V straight into an old 50W half stack. this tone can be used for old metal, rockn roll of many kind, rockabilly, punk, blues .

[Lefty Lou]

To me the Ayan Smooth and Slim is not really an EQ pedal. it's more of a filter that "realigns" a specific portion of the audio spectrum (and for the better/best). You may encounter a slight loss of Bass and Volume but, you just turn up these controls to compensate for any loss(es). Try before you buy, I'm sure you'll be glad you did, just a recommendation FWIW. This little unit is for guys that play at volume like yourself, and not really for bedroom volume players.

[Tone Slinger]

Got a link to those pedals Lou ? Sounds interesting.
Awangotango,man I'm downright jealous of that v of yours . I agree about your take on the 'V & old 50 watter tone. Not much bass but super mids to upper mids.Schenker definately had a .68uf over the 820 on v2in the UFO days. I didnt dig his 'rocker switch' (MSG) tones. Not enough top end imo. His late '60's to early'70's top(stenciled 'UFO')seemed tobe his main top with UFO.Chapman was plugged into it on that 'Whistle test' gig in '77 playing 'Doctor Doctor' while Schenker was 'Off with the Moonies' .
The 'China Paul' in my Avatar through my 12xxx and jcm800 slant 4/12 with 6402 coned greenbacks can get as close as I've been able to get to that old Schenker tone. When using a hb'er strat its darn close to 'Fair Warning' era EVH(Mean street). I like a v as far as Gibby's go though. They dont dig into my stomach and hurt my fore-arm like Pauls do. In that way they get around having the belly and fore- arm contours.

[Lefty Lou]

Tone Slinger, here are some links, as well as some good reading:

http://enterprises.ayanmusic.com/sandsGS.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://enterprises.ayanmusic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://enterprises.ayanmusic.com/sands.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://enterprises.ayanmusic.com/S&S_Manual_Mark_II.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[awangotango]

2nd coat. The patch is now just a bad dream. Coming along nicely.

[awangotango]

@toneslinger. There wasn't an era of Schenker that I didn't like tone or playing wise but yes the 80's MSG tone was very mellow on the top end but I love it as much as earlier and later tones. That being said, for a rhythm tone this has always been THE target for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_A3CVkZMQ0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rudi's tone on blackout is to my ears a 60's low output PAF, green or grey back celestions and the 70's full mahogany V straight into a non master marshall or a backed off master, no effects, possibly with the volume on the git backed off a bit. Full on for solos. Some good tubes. SIMPLE.








there's hundreds of example of Killer Flying V tone, but here's another. The quality that is the MIDRANGE V TONE is that compression that is detailed but still fat. There is no other way to get it except for a good explorer maybe. It's totally a vintage 80s tone. Modern tones are way too bass and trebly to get it. First metallica, Accept, et al.......

Some good tunes and tone. the band was swinging for this show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmqE0oaBVAk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




Roy z appreciates the same tone theres's better versions of tunes from this show but couldn't find them. this will do for now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dal1tzOS_b4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


a Les paul just will not get this late 70's/early 80's rock tone. Too honky, not throaty enough. although the precursor to this late 70's/early 80's V/marshall tone most certainly is early billy gibbons which was les paul. insert the V and a touch more gain and vioala! old school metal

[Tone Slinger]

Man, that v looks killer. A mirrored pick guard and truss rod cover would be bad assed and would really reflect the stage lights well. Both Rudolph (Tokyo tapes pics in centerfold) and Paul Stanley had that.

I totally agree about a Les Paul having too much honk with tht lower mid/bottom end type thing. There is so much wood at the joint with the top horn extending well into the joint.This China Paulof mine just really sounds good,but yeah, a nice V has that poky compressed mid thing, that far over extends the top and bottom end.
I totally agree about the low output pu's. Rudolph and Michael (as well as Matthias, though his 'may' have been the 'dirty fingers'.What did '76/'77 era Explorers come stock with ?) had t-tops in thier guitars and they were low output.
Man, those U.D.O guitarists sound great. Nice nod to the early mid '80's metal tone.

I always preffered Rudolphs Rhythm tone to Michaels.I remember thinking that the Scorpions continued to have Michaels UFO era tone on 'Love Drive', Animal Magnetism,Blackout, and Love At First Sting, while Michaels 'MSG' stuff disentegrated a bit,tone-wise. I thought "Man,I wish Michael would get these tones (Scorpions) nowadays"That was back in '84.

I always loved the rhythm tone on 'Coast To Coast' and a song off of Animal Magnetism called 'Hold Me Close' though all the Scorpions stuff up toand including 'Love At First Sting' was bad assed.