Les Paul Historic

[Tone Slinger]

Hey Dan, you like flying V's ? Just asking 'cause lots of people are turned off by the shape and sitting down part,but I went to my local GC a couple times this past week,and had what I already knew reafirmed, which is, Good sounding Les Pauls are very hard to find. Maybe its just me, but those Gibson reissue V's consistantly sounded much better than any of the Les Pauls I played. The Les Pauls consistantly had more lower mid/bottom end, but were excessivly dull and nasally sounding. The v's all easily gave up a more 'classic' Les Paul type tone than the Les Pals themselves. Compare them at your local GC. They are around a grand.

[Myopic Void]

What do you people think about them? Im wondering what the difference is with the 59 taht makes it so much more expensive. Ive been through the LP custom route. I dont know that the maple and ebony is my thing. At one time, yeah. The Tokai seem like a nice alternative but I will never buy another guitar I cant play first.

Dan I really like the Historic line...after using standard USA LP and then playing and comparing a Historic LP it is apples and oranges.

There are so many incorrect details some hidden and some obvious on standard US LP's starting the the wood, which is of lesser quality and much heavier than original 58-60 LP's. The tops are an obvious one...they are clearly not in same class as a Historic LP. The neck-tenon as mentioned are flat out wrong. The pitch of the headstock is incorrect, the controls and hardware are not positioned exactly right, the TP is pot metal and way heavier than historic TP. The Studs and Bushings are brass/zinc and should be case hardened steel.

The carve on top is incorrect, headstock veener should be holly USA standard LP use something else. Fretboard is of lesser quality. Binding is the wrong size.

Mother of pearl type inlay is wrong. PU mounts are clearly not the right size. I am sure there a couple I left off but you get the idea. Standard USA LP's might as be called something different as they have little in common with a original 58-60 Burst. Since 68-69 when the brought the LP line back they have been LP's only in name IMO.

There a couple things still not spot on with the Historic line. For example the Studs Bushings are not case hardened steel like the originals and the TP although lightweight is still not as light or shaped like an original. Fortunatley there is a guy who makes exact replicas with very tight tolerances like the orignals. I use his parts. I gutted my pots and caps and put orignal sprauge BB's and RS pots and old PAF PU's. DAM makes exact replica PAF covers. Basically there are independent craftsman around that make clone parts for the freaks like me who want everything 100% accurate on Historic. Historic makeovers is one such entity.

To buy a off the shelf 59/60 they are appx $4400-$5200. Add the correct TP, studs, bushings, better pots, old BB caps, clone PAF's you can add another $1000.00-$1200.00 appx. Long ago I looked into how many they make per year are made which various alot but as little as 150 1960 Historic R0's are produced a year. That's what I remember reading.

They are worth the $$$ I think.

There is also the neck tenon joint. Its much longer on the historic guitars, which is how an old LP is constructed. There are a few other changes to make them more historically accurate, like the jack plate being slightly more square than the rounded edges of a non historic, and the narrower binding, that lets the edge of the maple top show in the cutaway. There is also the color... '59's are usually cherry sunburst, with the occasional darkburst, but most of the '58's are that lighter honeyburst. Its all small, detail-y stuff, but a lot of guys want it "right" down to the last screws.
I think the most historically accurate LP's are the ones made in 2003. They have all the details right, plus they have a brazilian rosewood fretboard, like an original guitar. Of the reissues, they seem to get the most attention (and money) from guys that are looking for a really accurate example of that guitar. Strange, though, cause Ive seen '58 reissues with really nice tops on them (some at least as nice as a few '59's I've seen), and they're $1,000 less than a '59 reissue, which really is the same guitar with the exception of the color, and as JD said, the neck profile on the '58 is slightly bigger than a '59.

In 05 they did correct the headstock pitch which was not correct on the 03's etc. I believe is was suppost to be 17d instead of 14d. I cannot remember exactly 14d or 17d??? But the 03 did have the Brazil fretboard. note: Historic Makeovers now puts Brazil boards and condomless TR's on historics.

Cheers,

Eric

[Tone Slinger]

But you wouldnt go to such lengths to attain 'authenticity' if the guitar itself didnt sound good would you. How many historic models did you have to try before you found one that rang right ?

[Beavis]

GC has some very nice '60 VOS with plain tops in a dark burst that look fantastic and sound awsome, try to check one out if you get a chance.

I work at GC and this one came in last Tuesday. It was mine on Friday.

[Billy Batz]

But you wouldnt go to such lengths to attain 'authenticity' if the guitar itself didnt sound good would you. How many historic models did you have to try before you found one that rang right ?

Good question.

TS Im not at all a fan of Vs. I just could never get used to them and yes the sitting thing is a big deal since I do more of that then playing out anymore.

[Billy Batz]

Good post MV. What about the 59-60 vs 58? Is the only real difference the top? I dont care about the figured top really. Theres 58s with figured tops that are about the same price-wise as the 59s.

[Myopic Void]

But you wouldnt go to such lengths to attain 'authenticity' if the guitar itself didnt sound good would you. How many historic models did you have to try before you found one that rang right ?

I would not if it sounded poorer than a standard USA LP right out of the box. I owned over the years a few USA LP's ranging from Norlin era to mid 90's Classic series. Then I tried about a half dozen Historic's before settling on the RO. Stock the neck feel on this RO really jumped out at me (better feel than a USA) tone (even with the Burst B's) was more open than a standard through the 67 or 69SLP. Acoustically it rang out more. Obviously the weight issue is apparant right away (which I like alot).

However knowing a few details were still not period correct pushed me to go farther. It's a personal choice just like one would tweak a new Marshall HW or SLP reissue by adding more period correct parts etc. I can honeslty say the gains of the correct studs and bushings are very minor indeed. Acoustically the guitar seems to ring out more. Others may notice more from correct studs and Bushings. The gains of replacing the stock Bumble B's and pots made more of a difference in positive way (slightly more open and smoother taper on the pots). The PU' are the most obvious. Real PAF's are a different animal than a Burst Bucker. More open and complex sounding. I tried tons of boutique PU's before settling. I think there certaily is a cumilitive effect i.e. the more you change the more it will take on a different charactor.

You can still get the job done with a standard LP USA as a great musical idea beats all hands. Good tone just makes it better. If the general idea is to get all things back to original spec you cant stop at just the amps,...the cabs, the guitar, mic's, mic-pre's, recording medium, room all play a factor.

What do you prefer in the way of LPs?

Cheers,

Eric

[Myopic Void]

Good post MV. What about the 59-60 vs 58? Is the only real difference the top? I dont care about the figured top really. Theres 58s with figured tops that are about the same price-wise as the 59s.

Thanks Dan...the 58 has a larger neck. Basically it goes Large 58, 59 medium , 60 small. I did not like the feel of the 58 at all. But it is subjective obviously. They use to make 58 flame tops and then quit for whatever reason. The price went down with the omition of figured flame tops on the 58. Try them all pick one out and then if you decide you want to go the distance tweaking etc. You may get one that sounds superb as is. Really it the pots and PU's that really bothered me...

Cheers,

Eric

[Tone Slinger]

I think the necks are a bit too thick on the 58's and 59's. I prefer the '60 neck ('beano' Bluesbreaker's was a '60, I think) cause it is slimmer,but not skinny. I'm talkin reissue's here,cause the last REAL '59 I saw, the owner wouldnt let me touch, cause he knew I wasnt a potential buy'er. It was $125,000, and that was 4 or 5 yrs ago.

Also, the frets are shorter on the real '58 models, as compared to the '59 and '60 models,though I dont think Gibson differentiated on the reissue's .

I dont know, I'm a strat man mainly, but a V is the only Gibson Type guitar that I've played, that sounded ,to my ears, like a Gibson should. Very round, warm and midrangey. I think a Les Paul has more variables at stake,that potentially can diminish the tone(vaneered top,binding,etc), otherwise they would be way more consistant,as far as sound goes.

[Billy Batz]

I figured that to be the case. I do it on all my guitars anyway. Stock pickups and electronics in a new guitar? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahhahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahahahaaaaaahhhahhahhahhahahahahahahhaha......he....he.he....he....... hahahahahahahahahahaha Ill stop.

[Guitar Adjuster]

GC has some very nice '60 VOS with plain tops in a dark burst that look fantastic and sound awsome, try to check one out if you get a chance.

I work at GC and this one came in last Tuesday. It was mine on Friday.

HAHAHAH, that is the same color as mine. And it feels and sounds great! Don't let the
60 neck fool you its not a "slim taper" like a classic, more of a rounded 59 with a slightly flater back. And I do have an RS kit and pickups already

[Flames1950]

Well, I'll brand myself a heretic right here and now and say that I don't see jack of difference between the Standard and the Historic to justify more than twice the price for a cherry sunburst Les Paul.
I have no complaints about the quality of wood in my Standard, but even if the Historic is a "higher" quality of wood, go down to the fine woods dealer and see how much difference that comes out to. It ain't thousands, not even hundreds for the amount you need to make a guitar. Maybe $50?
All the spec differences don't add up to the price difference either. Does it really take that much labor to make the neck tenon longer, the headstock and neck angle different? Hey, they carve less wood out of the Historic's top, so it should be cheaper on labor........and for all the PR they put into it I don't doubt for one second that either guitar's parts are loaded onto a CNC machine and carved, with just a different program loaded........
It all adds up to a big spin for those who can't get over that Les Pauls aren't made exactly the same as they used to be to my ears....and hands. If that makes the difference in the way you percieve the guitar, cool. I've played a real Gibson from the golden ages quite a bit growing up, my '06 Les Paul Standard plays and feels no worse to me. My only complaint is still the pickups......lo and behold, the Historic uses the same pickups as my Standard without the wax and with an A2 instead of an A5.........
I'd give them $3K tops for the '59 Historic compared to my $2K Standard, anything else is highway robbery.

Rip away on me.........

[Guitar Adjuster]

Andy,

I will agree on most points. But, my reason for purchasing the VOS was that all the standards that GC had; 1. were weight releaved, 2. fit and finish were not as nice, 3. they did not sound as good as the VOS I picked out. And OOO I looked for many months at all the standards and classics that came in and out of the store. It mostly boiled down to how the guitar felt and sounded. I would have loved to have picked up a less expensive standard or classic but could not find one that was "right".

[wdelaney72]

and so justifies my decision to not buy anything from Gibson. I realize you get what you pay for, but there's a pretty distinct line. It's a damn shame that the guitars have the price tag they do, yet it takes that much research to find the right one. They're my favorite guitars, but they've sold their soul.

OK, rant over.

[Billy Batz]

If it comes down to price I dont see why a standard should cost nearly what it does either. I mean it is what it is. They charge what they do because they can knowing people will still pay it. I assume the price of a VOS comes from the fact that few are made so they can charge just about whatever they want for them. They dont keep the company going.