69 - 74 Les Paul Electronics Question

[jfhudak]

Hey Fellers,

I've got a question regarding the pots used in Les Pauls between 1969 and 1974. Were they 300k or 500k? Were the values the same for the tone and the volume? What types of pots were used, in terms of the taper? Linear?

The reason I ask is this: 20 years ago I had two Les Pauls, a 69 Custom and a 73 Deluxe. The Deluxe had been hogged out for humbuckers and the Custom had the original patent sticker t-tops. Both guitars had Sprague caps in them. The Deluxe had a set of DiMarzio PAFs in it. Neither guitar sounded harsh, EVER. And, they both had a GREAT taper to the pots. Very adjustable. I really loved the way they sounded. So, here's where I totally screwed up.

When I was in college, I bought into the hype from Gibson about the 1960 Classics. I sold both of my old Les Pauls and bought a new Classic Plus. Since that time, I have switched over to Historics, and been through COUNTLESS sets of pickups trying to replicate the sound of my old guitars, now long gone. I have not been able to get that tone back, until a couple weeks ago.

Recently, I bought a GOTW, an Explorer. It came with regular old 57 Classics in it, and 300k pots. Man alive!! That guitar sounds like my old ones did! It sure as hell sounds better than ANY Historic I have put through my Marshalls.

Is it possible that the sound I grew up on, and grew to love, came from guitars that had low-output pickups and 300k pots?

Just guessing here, but I am starting to see a pattern.

As always, thanks for your helpful, informative, and expert replies, Fellers!

Johnny

[fillmore nyc]

I spoke to Edwin Wilson at Gibson a few years ago. (He's the guy that runs the Custom/Art/Historic division shop). He says early LP's (and the Historic LP's) use 300k audio taper pots for volume, and 500k linear taper pots for tone.
I've used that set up in a couple of LP's that I've re-wired, and to me, they sound great. (I dont use a cap on the volume control to retain highs when turning down the volume as some people do. I like the slight high roll-off when turning down).
Also, just cause its my own preference, I dont use .022mfd caps in the tone circuit. I use .01mfd's, cause to me, they are a little more usable and musical if you're using distortion.

[jfhudak]

I spoke to Edwin Wilson at Gibson a few years ago. (He's the guy that runs the Custom/Art/Historic division shop). He says early LP's (and the Historic LP's) use 300k audio taper pots for volume, and 500k linear taper pots for tone.
I've used that set up in a couple of LP's that I've re-wired, and to me, they sound great. (I dont use a cap on the volume control to retain highs when turning down the volume as some people do. I like the slight high roll-off when turning down).
Also, just cause its my own preference, I dont use .022mfd caps in the tone circuit. I use .01mfd's, cause to me, they are a little more usable and musical if you're using distortion.

I KNEW IT! As soon as I fired up my new Explorer, I started to hear that tone that I haven't heard in like 15 years. It kind of freaked me out. I began to realize that I had probably been moving (unwittingly) farther and farther away from what I wanted. I upgraded both of my Les Pauls with CTS 500k pots from RS, and put aluminum tailpieces on them.

It's funny because 20 years ago, I was always happy with the bridge pickups on my Pauls, but I didn't like the neck pickups very much!! Now, it's the exact opposite! I think a good compromise might be 500k in the neck and 300k in the bridge for volume, and dual 500k tone pots.

Do you happen to know of a good source for CTS pots? Unfortunately, RS doesn't sell the 300k pots separately.

Thanks for the great info man!

[fillmore nyc]

Yeah, Mojo Musical Supply sells CTS pots, in these exact values.

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/products.asp?id=13962

Mojo is a great source for a lot of stuff dealing with guitars, amps, etc. They make really nice guitar cabinets, and will do custom work for you as well. (Like a 1-15" tweed Fender Pro cabinet cut for a handwired Deluxe chassis, which they did for me. )

[jfhudak]

Yeah, Mojo Musical Supply sells CTS pots, in these exact values.

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/products.asp?id=13962

Mojo is a great source for a lot of stuff dealing with guitars, amps, etc. They make really nice guitar cabinets, and will do custom work for you as well. (Like a 1-15" tweed Fender Pro cabinet cut for a handwired Deluxe chassis, which they did for me. )

Rock on! Thanks bro!

[jfhudak]

Just ordered 4 300k CTS pots with vintage style backs on them. Cost me a little over 20 bucks. I'll put'em in and report back.

I heard that the sweep on the 300k audios is better, is that true and what's "better" about them?

Thanks again for the helpful info!

[fillmore nyc]

Just ordered 4 300k CTS pots with vintage style backs on them. Cost me a little over 20 bucks. I'll put'em in and report back.

I heard that the sweep on the 300k audios is better, is that true and what's "better" about them?

Thanks again for the helpful info!

Well, the "sweep" isnt better or worse on an audio taper pot... its just different than a linear taper pot, if thats what you mean. See even though the term "linear taper" sounds like it would give you an "even" roll off, it doesnt. In a literal sense, it DOES decrease (or increase) the signal "evenly", but our ears dont hear sound that way. The analogy would be that, if at full volume, your amp makes 100db of sound, half of that volume (to your ears) might be something like 92db. A linear volume pot, at 1/2 volume would make this amp put out 50db, which would sound like a whisper next to 100db.
Thats where audio taper pots come in. At half of the pots rotation, the 100db WOULD now be 92db, and would sound to your ear like half volume, but in literal terms, its not half volume. This is why we use audio taper pots in a volume situation: cause turning the pot down half way, SOUNDS like half volume. You're not really concerned with what the db meter reads--just what your ear hears.
In any event, using audio taper pots will work just fine as volume and tone pots. They would be a much better choice than linear taper pots, especially for volume controls. A linear pot for a volume control on a guitar ramps off WAY too fast, IMO.

[jfhudak]

Just ordered 4 300k CTS pots with vintage style backs on them. Cost me a little over 20 bucks. I'll put'em in and report back.

I heard that the sweep on the 300k audios is better, is that true and what's "better" about them?

Thanks again for the helpful info!

Well, the "sweep" isnt better or worse on an audio taper pot... its just different than a linear taper pot, if thats what you mean. See even though the term "linear taper" sounds like it would give you an "even" roll off, it doesnt. In a literal sense, it DOES decrease (or increase) the signal "evenly", but our ears dont hear sound that way. The analogy would be that, if at full volume, your amp makes 100db of sound, half of that volume (to your ears) might be something like 92db. A linear volume pot, at 1/2 volume would make this amp put out 50db, which would sound like a whisper next to 100db.
Thats where audio taper pots come in. At half of the pots rotation, the 100db WOULD now be 92db, and would sound to your ear like half volume, but in literal terms, its not half volume. This is why we use audio taper pots in a volume situation: cause turning the pot down half way, SOUNDS like half volume. You're not really concerned with what the db meter reads--just what your ear hears.
In any event, using audio taper pots will work just fine as volume and tone pots. They would be a much better choice than linear taper pots, especially for volume controls. A linear pot for a volume control on a guitar ramps off WAY too fast, IMO.

COOL! Thanks for the lesson bro!

This has been a real education, I'll tell you. I've been playing almost 30 years and I thought for a long time that the sounds I liked were just dumb luck, but I am finding out that you CAN be strategic about putting your rig together.

So, another question for you: What's the difference between using 300k and 500k for tone? I get the volume situation because you are actually putting a load on the circuit, but I am unsure of the tone pots.

Thanks again man!

Peace

Johnny Reb

[fillmore nyc]

So, another question for you: What's the difference between using 300k and 500k for tone? I get the volume situation because you are actually putting a load on the circuit, but I am unsure of the tone pots.

Theoretically, using a 500k on the tone pot would yeild a brighter sound because there is more resistance to keep any signal from getting to the tone cap (only when the tone pot is fully open, or on "10"). A 300k tone pot has less resistance, and will let an EXTREMELY small amount of signal thru the pot to the cap, which of course sends high frequencies to ground, but its not like its a night and day difference between a 300k and a 500k. I think you'd almost have to have dog ears to hear the difference at all.
Using a 1meg tone pot will give a brighter overall sound, but again, I dont know if the difference would really be that audible. POSSIBLY if you A/B'd a 250k tone pot against a 1meg tone pot, you MIGHT be able to hear a slight difference, but Im really sure its so minimal that it would be a non-issue. Moving the presence knob on your amp from 6 to 6 1/2 would probably make up any difference.
Whichever tone pot you use will make no difference if you are actually USING the tone control (ie: have the tone pot rolled full off), cause then the signal is going directly to the cap, essentially with the pot not in the circuit.

[jfhudak]

So, another question for you: What's the difference between using 300k and 500k for tone? I get the volume situation because you are actually putting a load on the circuit, but I am unsure of the tone pots.

Theoretically, using a 500k on the tone pot would yeild a brighter sound because there is more resistance to keep any signal from getting to the tone cap (only when the tone pot is fully open, or on "10"). A 300k tone pot has less resistance, and will let an EXTREMELY small amount of signal thru the pot to the cap, which of course sends high frequencies to ground, but its not like its a night and day difference between a 300k and a 500k. I think you'd almost have to have dog ears to hear the difference at all.
Using a 1meg tone pot will give a brighter overall sound, but again, I dont know if the difference would really be that audible. POSSIBLY if you A/B'd a 250k tone pot against a 1meg tone pot, you MIGHT be able to hear a slight difference, but Im really sure its so minimal that it would be a non-issue. Moving the presence knob on your amp from 6 to 6 1/2 would probably make up any difference.
Whichever tone pot you use will make no difference if you are actually USING the tone control (ie: have the tone pot rolled full off), cause then the signal is going directly to the cap, essentially with the pot not in the circuit.

Right on. Damn, this has been one SERIOUSLY educational week for me. I love this forum!

Thanks brother!

I'll let you know how it turns out once I get the guitar back and get the pots changed out.

Peace

Johnny

[fillmore nyc]

Right on. Damn, this has been one SERIOUSLY educational week for me. I love this forum!

Thanks brother!

I'll let you know how it turns out once I get the guitar back and get the pots changed out.

Peace

Johnny

Cool, bro!!