Vintage Strat Tremelo

[basile865]

After going to a guitar show in charlotte NC today, I was lucky enough to play an all original 68, getting to inspect every detail. At the show there were plenty of vintage strats, as well as new fender reissues. I went back and forth comparing the saddles of a new reissue to the original vintage. The saddles on the vintage strats were noticeably stamped out of a thicker gauge steel. The springs for intonation were also thicker and more compressed.

Check out this page and scroll to the bottom. Look at the saddle springs.
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/strat54.html

My question is this. Who produces the best, most accurate vintage strat tremelos?

I know callaham is a big player in this market but I don't know if its extremely vintage accurate. It seems that his products are enhanced for better overall performance. For instance the cutout in the saddle for the string to pass through is elongated. This is to have the string get a better angle on the arch of the saddle and relieve stress against the flat edge that could cause string breakage. Now this is all fine and dandy BUT, my feeling is that I want a bridge that is Identical in every way, problems and all! I'd like the saddles cut from the same gauge and recipe steel as the originals.

Then there is the pop in trem arm with less threads. Its supposed to have an improved angle and prevent overwinding. To me then, the block is drilled differently. Again, I'm looking for the exact original specs, no "improvements" at all.

Does anybody make IDENTICAL tremelo assemblies?

[thousandshirts]

So you haven't tried a Callaham trem, in person?

Most of the reports I've heard indicate that the time and research Bill at Callaham put into making his trem unit really paid off. He's got a vintage version, and a more modern version (or perhaps more than that). Lots of people swear by them, and place them head and shoulders above any of the Fender factory offerings, regardless of the year. Call Bill at Callaham up and talk to him about it.

[basile865]

I dont mean to knock down callaham in any way, I've heard nothing but great things about his tremelos. I just had the impression that he took all his experience with great vintage stuff and made adjustments where he felt the original design was lacking. Theres nothing wrong with this, its just that I have it in my head that ALL of my major favorite music has been created on total vintage spec gear and when you start modifying things everything else gets effected and it starts to change little by little until before you know it, your whole setup is nothing like the old days.

I know the changes he made were minor, but I just like to apply the rule to everything gear wise, total vintage spec, with all its greatness and all its problems.

If I was really going to modern improvements I'd just have a 10 inch radius fretboard with medium jumbos, and a titanium block or something. I just wanted to see if someone out there has set out to really create an identical tremelo, minus the fender pat pending imprint ofcourse

[thousandshirts]

Right. I didn't misunderstand your request; as was clearly stated in your message, vintage is vintage, nothing else. But, like I said, I'd still call Bill and talk to him about them. If you're interested in finding out what the details are, or even where to find an absolute 100% vintage trem, complete with the problems they had, he might very well know about it. No offense whatsoever: he will know more about them than you -- he'll also know more about them than me, and a lot of the other people here -- no offense to them. Call an expert. Whatever you THINK you know, call an expert. Long distance rates are lower than ever. And if they aren't, switch plans.

[frenchie]

After going to a guitar show in charlotte NC today, I was lucky enough to play an all original 68, getting to inspect every detail. At the show there were plenty of vintage strats, as well as new fender reissues. I went back and forth comparing the saddles of a new reissue to the original vintage. The saddles on the vintage strats were noticeably stamped out of a thicker gauge steel. The springs for intonation were also thicker and more compressed.

Check out this page and scroll to the bottom. Look at the saddle springs.
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/strat54.html

My question is this. Who produces the best, most accurate vintage strat tremelos?

I know callaham is a big player in this market but I don't know if its extremely vintage accurate. It seems that his products are enhanced for better overall performance. For instance the cutout in the saddle for the string to pass through is elongated. This is to have the string get a better angle on the arch of the saddle and relieve stress against the flat edge that could cause string breakage. Now this is all fine and dandy BUT, my feeling is that I want a bridge that is Identical in every way, problems and all! I'd like the saddles cut from the same gauge and recipe steel as the originals.

Then there is the pop in trem arm with less threads. Its supposed to have an improved angle and prevent overwinding. To me then, the block is drilled differently. Again, I'm looking for the exact original specs, no "improvements" at all.

Does anybody make IDENTICAL tremelo assemblies?

i think you can try to call the guy who makes original senn guitars , he seem to machine personally his own saddles and offers different recipies of stell for them , there's an entire part of his site dedicated to that ;

http://www.jeffsennguitars.com/

i think he will probably be able to answer your needs

[basile865]

seems that those are only made for telecasters and they're outsourced. I'll email though and ask - thanks

[Tone Slinger]

Rob, I wish I new more about the specifics of the old Fender bridges, but I dont. Here's what I've found/and or my theories:

* The bridges are 'supposed' to be the same from '54-mid '71. I think, the mid '71 'three bolts' and on,had cheaper cast saddles.

* I havent looked at bridges specifically of enough original examples to confirm this though.

* I would think that the actual alloy of the block would have changed some over the years, regardless of the tooling done to them.


* The actual alloy/material of the newer 'reissue' Fender blocks seems all wrong. It isnt the same material/formula.


* I have personally found the old '70's into the mid '80's Tokai bridges are best (I have 2). They make ANY strat you put them sound great. The saddles and blocks on these old reissue's (mine was a '56 reissue) as well as every aspect of construction seems to have been analyzed by the builders (Very die hard Japs with lots of originals to go by). They obviously couldnt stamp 'Fender' on each saddle though .

Check forum member 'World Of Tone' on this topic. He has lots of original strats.

[basile865]

will do when i get the chance. I checked out some tokai's online. They look real cool. I love that name Tokai Springy Sound for some reason. And the little decals that say oldies but goodys or goldens or something like that. Id love to try one one day.

[worldoftone]

From my '64:





Wood and pickups have more to do with it than a bridge does IMO. Either the guitar has "it" or it doesn't. It's black and white to me.

- WOT

[worldoftone]

From my '58:



From my Gillis '66:





From a '73 I sold last year. Geez, if I kept EVERY Strat I've ever owned it would be insanity over here.







I feel like Yngwie308 posting all these pics LOL!



- WOT

[worldoftone]

2007 CS '60 Relic:



- WOT

[worldoftone]

From a '70. This guitar was beautiful to look at, but it played like a dog and sounded even worse. Lord help the new owner:



Another '73 cavity. This seller of this guitar tried to pass this guitar off as an original Candy Apple Red. It didn't pass my scrutiny. Refin and STORIES all the way. Seller gave me my $$$ back with no hassles at least. A shame because this guitar sounded and played fantastic.



Well, that should give you something to discuss anyway. Let's rock!



- WOT

[basile865]

Man, thankyou so much for taking the time to post the pics. Looks like you've owned a strat or two or fourteen before.

Its sorta hard to tell in the pics the comparison between a vintage saddle and reissue from the side of them. But you can definitely see the bulk in those intonation springs. I doubt these effect the tone much, but it was something I noticed along with the thicker saddles on the vintage trems. They could help strengthen the saddle's placement and make them tighter, as opposed to the tiny, thin metal, less coil spring on a reissue trem. On the vintage ones they really pack a lot of coils in those springs.

Again, when I looked at the saddles of a vintage 68 and 65, back to back with a american 62 reissue - it was amazing the differences. When looking at the side of the saddle, you could see they were stamped out of thicker steel in comparison to the skinny, overly chrome plated reissue saddles. I'm convinced that this is a crucial difference in the tone.

Even the headstocks on all the vintage strats were cut out of thicker wood than the reissues. To me fender is just shaving a bit off pieces in their production line and they might just be crucial to making the strat "right"

Now as far as headstocks go, there was an original 54 there, and this thing looked like an alien. Looked like some cheap strat knock off haha. This was because it was so frail - there was absolute minimal wood on this strat. The headstock was real thin, no sharp edges - they were all sanded/rolled. The body was real skinny and overly sanded. It was going for $20,000. I dont know if its just me but that sounds real low for an original '54.

I think though, that a good vintage trem is a large part of vintage strats sounding better. The string path touches nothing but metal in all our playing, except the nut on open strings. If you've got crappy metal, its going to suck the tone of the string right up I think.

It seems like to get a good tone, there has to be the right combination of bright pieces and dark pieces in your chain. Some people have bright amps with dark guitars and dark cables, or have dark amps with bright guitars etc. Im thinking that if you dont have a bright enough guitar, acoustically speaking - not p-ups, then the string wont be able to vibrate enough to really get all of its harmonics and other qualities out. Thats why it seems like a real strong alloy saddle and bridge, screwed 6 times into strong alder connected to rock hard maple allows the string to vibrate best.

My american standard has the 2 point trem with crappy saddles and an even worse block. The body is most likely a 2 or 3 piece alder covered in thick poly. When I play that against my musikraft strat acoustically, the musikraft is much louder. The musikraft has a 1 piece alder with minimal paint on it, 6 screw trem, and I had the headstock cut much thicker (5/8ths").

I guess I'm trying to figure out the science behind the mojo of vintage strats. Hopefully I'm unlocking a few clues. I'll never be able to afford vintage, and looking at how much better sounding the musikraft is than the american standard, it seems I'll be building my next couple strats that way. Plus theres something rewarding about painting and assembling yourself that I never knew there would be.

Ok enough!

[worldoftone]

Prices are DOWN right now! Time to buy.

But, you also have to ask yourself "how many of these are fakes?" There are a LOT of fakes out there these days and you have to be extremely careful. I've seen a lot of fakes that would fool even the best. Seen a lot of refins that would fool the most seasoned collector. There is a '66 floating around down here that you would swear it was an original finish, but nope. Freaking nuts.

Good luck in your quest. I'd say save your money and shoot for an original '63 - '67. Still decent vintage, great sounding, but not with the higher pricing of the earlier ones. I have a '63, '64 and a '66 now. They are all great in their own way (FWIW the '63 kills the other two LOL!) I had a '65 about 10-years ago. That guitar was good too, and it was beat to death.

- WOT

[Tone Slinger]

Fucking great pics and info there Worldoftone ! My Tokai bridges are EXACTLY like the '64 of yours, the way it is constructed is exact as far as my eyes can tell. The block holes are exact in design and depth, as well as the block 'corroding' to the same look/color. It is plain to see that the saddles on the '70's ones were of a different construction, as well as the blocks looking like they were different material.

Rob, I think your Strat 'Tonal observations' are right on ! Although the two piece alder body of my '84 1956 reissue Tokai has always sounded good with the many different necks, bridges, and pu's its had on it over the yrs, it definatly has sounded best using these ingredients:


* First,I agree with WOT about the body. A bad sounding piece of wood can be helped by the bridge,pu's,etc, BUT , the body will dictate whether the strat can be GRRREEAAT ! For example, Ash too me is WRONG for a vintage style strat.


* I've compared 3 bridges on my strat. All were the 6 screw variety, but one (a gold colored 'all parts') let the string ball go half way through the block. This bridge sounded thinner, less dynamic ,less loud and sorta 'scooped' sounding.

A reissue Fender bridge sounded a bit like my Tokai, except that it was sorta looser and less defined sounding. The dynamics werent as good either. I analyzed the construction of the two and concluded that the blocks were a different alloy.

* I've had several necks on as well, and have found that the vintage single acting truss rod is warmer and more dynamic sounding than the newer 'Warmoth' construction type designs, which are overly bright and sorta 'stiff and sterile' sounding.
Rosewood boards also add a sorta 'softer' type 'slower' feel to the tone. I like maple board the best.

Also, the actual thickness of the neck affects the sound. I've noticed that a medium sized neck gets a little 'bigger' sound. The thinner the neck is, so goes an aspect of the tone. A TOO big neck inhibits playing ease, so there is a 'cut off' point in my opinion concernng the size.

* The pu's, in my experience, affect a certain amount of the eq. If they are TOO weak, then you become more dependant on how you run your amp and effects, but, if they are TOO strong, they can lose that transparent 'straty' quality. The vintage style single coil wound to around 6 to 8k, sounds consistantly good to me. To go under or over that changes things.