Les Paul Wiring

[F#m7]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this clearly. I have my LP wired 50's style. That means when I roll back the volume, it also engages the tone and the more you decrease the volume, the more the tone is rolled down. (Which has me wondering how Udo gets the clarity and cut in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA0LtEla ... re=related
because that guitar is wired 50's style, and at the beginning of the clip he has the volume on around 3, but no mud??) but I digress. Would it be possible to wire the guitar so that the inverse happens? The more I turn the guitar volume down, it brings the tone up? If so, could you take it a step further and have it so that as you roll your volume up, the tone rolls down, but only to the point at which you have your tone knob set? In other words, if I have my tone on 6, volume all the way down, tone control completely out of the circuit, as I increase my volume, the tone gradually comes in and rolls off the highs, but only to the maximum set on the tone which would be in this case, 6. Anyone with me here? Am I pissin' up a rope here?

[56goldtop]

Actually it's the other way around. With 50's wiring (both wiring methods were used in the 50's, but one is called "modern" for some reason), the treble doesn't roll off as much as with modern.

I have Dr. Vintage wiring in my R8, wired to 50's style, and there's practically no treble loss at all.

[F#m7]

that's odd, because when I spoke with Jim at WCR who I got the pot and cap kit from, he said that was exactly what 50's wiring was supposed to do(roll off the treble that is). I'm really confused now.

[56goldtop]

Huh, that really is confusing....

Perhaps there are more than one "50's wiring"...?

[fillmore nyc]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this clearly. I have my LP wired 50's style. That means when I roll back the volume, it also engages the tone and the more you decrease the volume, the more the tone is rolled down. (Which has me wondering how Udo gets the clarity and cut in this clip

Rolling back the volume doesnt actually engage the tone circuit, you're just getting some capacitance thru the volume pot itself. The real easy way to have clarity while turning down your volume is to solder in a .001mfd cap between the center lug of the volume pot, and the hot lug (NOT the lug thats soldered to the pots can).
Then when you turn down the volume, the highs that were getting shunted to ground are re-introduced back into the signal, resulting in a guitar that retains its highs and clarity thru the full sweep of the volume pot, and it does not affect the volume pots operation--works great!!

[F#m7]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this clearly. I have my LP wired 50's style. That means when I roll back the volume, it also engages the tone and the more you decrease the volume, the more the tone is rolled down. (Which has me wondering how Udo gets the clarity and cut in this clip

Rolling back the volume doesnt actually engage the tone circuit, you're just getting some capacitance thru the volume pot itself. The real easy way to have clarity while turning down your volume is to solder in a .001mfd cap between the center lug of the volume pot, and the hot lug (NOT the lug thats soldered to the pots can).
Then when you turn down the volume, the highs that were getting shunted to ground are re-introduced back into the signal, resulting in a guitar that retains its highs and clarity thru the full sweep of the volume pot, and it does not affect the volume pots operation--works great!!

Awesome, I'll try that!

[philmanatee]

I just switched back to modern wiring in my r4. It was a little too dark and when I rolled back the tone control it seemed like I lost a little bit of drive. I'm not going to decide anything till I gig with it on Friday night, but it seemed more like what I wanted with the modern wiring. Phil

[fillmore nyc]

It was a little too dark and when I rolled back the tone control it seemed like I lost a little bit of drive.

I change out my tone caps from .022 to .01 for that exact reason. I've gone as low as .0047. Thats a pretty subtle tone control at that point, but it DOES work great with moderate to high gain.
I never use bigger than .01 on ANY guitar, whether its a Strat, Tele or LP. Anything bigger sounds like a mattress laying in front of the speaker to me.

[OnTheFritz]

I never use bigger than .01 on ANY guitar, whether its a Strat, Tele or LP. Anything bigger sounds like a mattress laying in front of the speaker to me.

What type/brand cap do you go for?

[fillmore nyc]

I never use bigger than .01 on ANY guitar, whether its a Strat, Tele or LP. Anything bigger sounds like a mattress laying in front of the speaker to me.

What type/brand cap do you go for?

In a tone circuit on a guitar, honestly, I dont think it really matters. The ONLY function of that cap is to shunt some high frequencies to ground.
Its all the rage to have bumblebee caps, or 'paper in oil' caps, but no matter WHAT caps you use, the same frequencies generated by the pickups are getting sent to ground. The CAP doesnt generate anything, its just a vehicle for those frequencies to get to ground!!

That being said, I use ceramic disc caps (those flat, mustard colored ones) and believe it or not, I get 'em in Radio Shack. The only time Ill go to an electronics supply is if I want some odd cap value, like .013, and I want the installation to be "clean", meaning that I dont want to combine multiple caps to achieve that value.

I know its not PC to get shit from Radio Shack, but I doubt very seriously whether the diff between a 99 cent R.S. cap is audible in a guitar tone circuit compared to a 10.00 NOS mustard cap, unless thats what you've just GOTTA see when you open up the control cavity.

HEY!! Some guys like Eric Johnson think they can hear the diff whether there is a rubber band holding his effects battery in place, or a piece of velcro...
Yeah, OK...
I HIGHLY DOUBT it, but he's famous, and Im not, so there ya go.

[Tuco]

In a tone circuit on a guitar, honestly, I dont think it really matters. The ONLY function of that cap is to shunt some high frequencies to ground.
Its all the rage to have bumblebee caps, or 'paper in oil' caps, but no matter WHAT caps you use, the same frequencies generated by the pickups are getting sent to ground. The CAP doesnt generate anything, its just a vehicle for those frequencies to get to ground!!

Actually, it's pretty easy for anyone to test different caps. Wire in some alligator clips, and it becomes very easy to swap caps in and out for a listening test. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but I know what I heard.

[philmanatee]

I think I tried about 4 different caps in my lp custom on the neck pickup before I got the right honk that I was looking for. Phil

[fillmore nyc]

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but I know what I heard.

Which was what?

The only thing a cap in a passive tone circuit is doing is sending frequencies to ground, and by its function, a cap passes a predetermined amount of high frequencies depending on its value. Those frequencies are being grounded!! They're generated by whatever pickup you're using, not the cap, so the only diff thats possible to hear is HOW MUCH highs are not in the signal getting sent to the amp.
No frequencies that are going thru that cap are getting back into the signal being sent to the amp. They're being grounded, never to be heard from again!!

Old caps, NOS caps, oil in paper caps, orange drop caps, Mustard caps, blah, blah, blah...
In a simple passive guitar tone circuit, the only difference between ANY of them is the fact that they WILL have different capacitance because they've lost some capacitance with age. A NOS cap that was rated at .022mfd when new is now probably .015mfd, which WILL sound different than a new .022 cap, but WILL NOT sound different than a new .015 cap in that application.

If you wanna spend lots of coin on NOS caps in a guitars tone circuit, then have at it. Measure the capacitance of a NOS cap (originally rated at .022) that you think sounds better, and when you find out that its not .022 anymore, but that its currently around .015, try installing a NEW .015 in the same circuit. If you can hear the difference THERE, you've got better ears than Eric Johnson.

[Scumback Speakers]

Well, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you fillmore. I've been down the road of NOS vs new caps, and I can hear the difference in them. I'll always search out a Bumble Bee, or Black Beauty sprague cap over new ones.

Personally I like an .010 or .015 in the neck and a .033 in the bridge.

There are certain measurements you can do to old caps to determine which are smoother and more organic, too. My guitar tech, Jim Foote, showed me what to look for in an old cap that makes it sound better.

Not all old caps are good, though, you're right about that. I've had .022 BB's measure .023, .024, .026 even, but I've never had them measure lower. Perhaps it's just my luck.

In any case, compared to new PIO caps, ceramic disc caps and others on the market, I can definitely hear the difference in my guitars.

[F#m7]

Just an update on the original post. I replaced the WCR pots and caps with Dr. Vintage, and all is well with the universe, although I did have a bad pot , Rick replaced it pronto .