You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

His guitar slung across his back, his dusty boots is his cadillac.

Moderators: VelvetGeorge, BUG

Post Reply

Do you feel the Band of Gypsies tone is El34s or 6550s?

6550
39
46%
EL34
45
54%
 
Total votes: 84

User avatar
razelfrax
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:13 am
Location: Toronto

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by razelfrax » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:10 am

I politely dissagree lol . I dont want to fight but my experience has shown me that speakers are THE #1 upgrade .Now that one of my 2x12 speakercabs (I have another 2x12 that will recieve one Scumback and one WGS ET65) is giving me a smooth full yet articulate punchy and beefy sound with my strats, I'm pretty sure that I will be changing my tonestack to 33k/500 from 56/250 and my output couplers to .022's from .1's . All the tuning I did was in an effort to tame the upper mids that I felt were totaly throwing my tone out of balance. I realise I probly had to break my golds and g12h30's in for a few thousand more hours lol but the 65 copies were instantly likeable. I have changed the glass as I have a large assortment of vintage tubes ie, mullys, amperex, tele, tungsram, rca,tesla and sylvania ecc83s . I also have some sylvania fat bottle 6ca7s, mully xf2s and 4's ,siemens el 34s and Shuguang kt66's but no matter what combination of these I put together with Marshall circuits using a merc mag ot or 1968 vintage traynor Hammond iron with carbon comp resistors. carbon films, and nos mustard caps , I could not tame those damn upper mids without the amp becoming cloudy. In short I have spent alot of time money and effort to learn about the paramount importance of speakers as the fundimental building block of my TONE !!! lol
Very rough Demos lol http://www.reverbnation.com/slp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fender Supersonic
2x12 WGS et65's
Custom Shop S1 Tele Relic
Custom Shop 65 Lite Relic Strat

jcs
Senior Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:31 am
Location: on a frickin hill

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by jcs » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:21 pm

im just saying get the tubes right THEN go try the amp with various speakers and cabs.

there is not a lot of agreement on which speakers are best with say most marshalls,also what works well in front of a microphone may not work as well live on a small stage or outdoors.

no doubt speakers are a big upgrade and i own lots of speakers too;

celestion greenbacks (england)
celestion early 75s in a 1984 jcm 800 cab (early 75s sound different than later, i lucked out with this cab these speakers were gigged heavily)
eminence texas heats
weber california ceramic 12s with big dust cap (duane allman preferred JBL with his plexi 50 marshalls)
celestion 65s from 1981 (great all purpose similar to early celestion 75s)
celestion vintage 30s (england- a weird upper mid peaky speaker does not work well with some amps)
eminence gbs (greg martin of kentucky headhunters likes these with his 71 smallbox 50 i like em too and i have a 71 smallbox 50)
eminence v12s
eminence 125 (jensen copy)
eminence 122
67 vox gold bulldog alnicos (oxford recones)
chicago jensen c12r
chicago jensen c12n
chicago jensen p12r
EV12L (powerful bottom end)

thats just the 12s, i dont need to get into 10s and 15s.

no doubt speakers are a huge part of the tone equation but dont forget the various cabinets that most of these speakers will sound different in;

various 1x12 semi open
various 2x12 sizes some sealed like my 62 bandmaster and other semi open
4 different 4x12s,some all plywood,some plywood with a particle back,front load and rear load.

all of these have an effect on the tone plus whether placement is on the floor or on a chair,how close to the wall..

im gonna spring for some scumbacks,probably start with a high power 8 ohm heavy mag model to use with some of my 1x12s

basile865
Senior Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:11 am
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by basile865 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:50 pm

Guys I sent an email to greg germino, of germino amps, built down here in NC. I have gotten to play his stuff and was extremely impressed with the tone. I figured I'd get his opinion on the band of gypsys tone.

Greg was great and got back to me with a very long email.

The short of it is that in his opinion, jimi was using a super bass that night, and that the 75hz speaker is the better choice. He said no matter who you get them from you need one with the H magnet, but in his opinion 55hz are too dark and the 75hz sounds more accurate to the original bass cones.

Now I know everyone might kick up a lot of dust over this but it sorta seems that the super bass is a good possibility. The super lead loaded with 6550s would be more headroom but stiff sounding, not necesarily that warm EL34 sound. So how else achieve the increased headroom needed, smoother/creamier overdrive, but with an EL34? The super bass circuit! According to greg a super bass circuit will give a flatter frequency response (perhaps why it sounds 6550ish), less gain, and later breakup.

To me it seems more in the direction I'm leaning.
Last edited by basile865 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
razelfrax
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:13 am
Location: Toronto

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by razelfrax » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:59 pm

Well it sounds as if you have some speakers that will give you a good reference sound for lower gain circuits . Most guitarists arnt that lucky. We buy reissue g12h30s and try and change everything else to get our sound because we're told that these are THE sound for Heavy blues rock .Now imagine if your only speaker frame of reference was those cele v30's and you were trying to get a fat silky smooth sound with a plexi? A guitarist that I was in a band with had the best sounding rig I've ever heard live and it was an early 70's 50watt Marshall through a Hiwatt 4x12 loaded with g1265's with a RUSH stencil on the back. Ive been chasing that tone ever since. Everybody has a diff idea of what that sound is but bright modern speakers and bright plexis dont seem to get me even in the ballpark as a Strat player.
Very rough Demos lol http://www.reverbnation.com/slp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fender Supersonic
2x12 WGS et65's
Custom Shop S1 Tele Relic
Custom Shop 65 Lite Relic Strat

User avatar
razelfrax
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:13 am
Location: Toronto

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by razelfrax » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:10 pm

I'm going to mix an m75hz 65watter with a scumback h55 65watt in 2 2x12 cabs with twin 50watt heads should be a Tonefest. :D Then I will compare GEC and Shuguang kt66's with sylv 6ca7s and mully xf2s. I'd like to try 6550s too. What are the best new ones out there ?
Very rough Demos lol http://www.reverbnation.com/slp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fender Supersonic
2x12 WGS et65's
Custom Shop S1 Tele Relic
Custom Shop 65 Lite Relic Strat

User avatar
Tone-Freak
Senior Member
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:47 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by Tone-Freak » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:49 pm

I was playing my 62 strat into my 67 super trem EL34's with a 4x12 G12M 25 T1221-003 BW cab today with my echo plex and V846 vox wha, Deja vibe, TS9 all in the chain but off except for the echo plex. Strat bridge pickup tone 5.5 volume 6-7 all knobs on amp on 8 including V2 and it sounded very close to Who knows. Very clean and lots of head room :)
Last edited by Tone-Freak on Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jcs
Senior Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:31 am
Location: on a frickin hill

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by jcs » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:06 am

razelfrax, i am anxious to hear your tone report and sheesh i wasnt aware you had vintage 30s for a reference! what a weird speaker that sometimes works very well live.

funny thing is,where i live, the vintage 30s are popular in bf and sf fenders,go figure!! everyone is searching out vintage 30 8 ohmers not to mention celestion 65s in 8 ohms (since robben ford loves these with his dumble amps).

i have had some success mixing vintage 30s with other speakers.

the thing about celestion 65s is there are many variations thru the production years (DunxB, now with carlsbro and former celestion designer taught us this).

Roe
Senior Member
Posts: 5056
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:36 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7
Location: Drontheim. Norwegen
Contact:

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by Roe » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:49 am

razelfrax wrote:I'm going to mix an m75hz 65watter with a scumback h55 65watt in 2 2x12 cabs with twin 50watt heads should be a Tonefest. :D Then I will compare GEC and Shuguang kt66's with sylv 6ca7s and mully xf2s. I'd like to try 6550s too. What are the best new ones out there ?
keep us updated on the m75/h55 combo!
http://www.myspace.com/20bonesband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.myspace.com/prostitutes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Super 100 amps: 1202-119 & 1202-84
JTM45 RS OT JTM50 JMP50 1959/2203/34/39

Billy Batz
Senior Member
Posts: 8566
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by Billy Batz » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:53 pm

basile865 wrote:Man, it just flat out doesn't make any sense whatsoever that Jimi could plug into the high treble input and get his sound. Even without a bright cap at all its too thin, and god imagine with low output single coils, itd be flat out disgusting. It makes no sense!

And this is me saying that with my channels jumped and the normal vol off
Maybe it doesnt make sense but this one isnt an issue. Theres countelss pics to see for yourself. Its the top left input every time.
Last edited by Billy Batz on Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Billy Batz
Senior Member
Posts: 8566
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by Billy Batz » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:55 pm

jcs wrote:im just saying get the tubes right THEN go try the amp with various speakers and cabs.

there is not a lot of agreement on which speakers are best with say most marshalls,
Yeah but there is a hell of a lot of agreement that 75Wers suck.
Ive done tube comparison clips. They make a difference, of coarse, but not like speakers. They are a lot cheaper tho.
razelfrax wrote:Well it sounds as if you have some speakers that will give you a good reference sound for lower gain circuits . Most guitarists arnt that lucky. We buy reissue g12h30s and try and change everything else to get our sound because we're told that these are THE sound for Heavy blues rock .Now imagine if your only speaker frame of reference was those cele v30's and you were trying to get a fat silky smooth sound with a plexi? A guitarist that I was in a band with had the best sounding rig I've ever heard live and it was an early 70's 50watt Marshall through a Hiwatt 4x12 loaded with g1265's with a RUSH stencil on the back. Ive been chasing that tone ever since. Everybody has a diff idea of what that sound is but bright modern speakers and bright plexis dont seem to get me even in the ballpark as a Strat player.
Exactly. I cant see how everyone doesnt get to this same point. Time and time again I just come back to it. The amps and sounds from the 60s were always so tight and trebly. How could those guys deal with it? The answer is their amps and speakers werent half as thin and bright as the so called reissues are. Its like using a treble booster with an AC30 or bluesbreaker. YOu dont use a treble booster into an amp tahts dialed in bright. You dial it in way bass heavy with no treble. Then the sound is nice and clear and tight from the booster but also very deep from the amp. I dont want to have to dial the preamp in a bright and thin amp/speaker combo in dark. Then what I got is a muddy sound FIRST overdriving the output in a very rumbly way and then still having a bright fizzle to it. No I want to dial in the preamp trebly and have the amp and speakers naturally thick and dark.

I think thats part of the equation but I think another part of it that maybe has a lot more to do with it than people will give credence to is that those guys all had hearing loss and the high end is the first to go. Theres no way possible Jimi didnt have hearing loss. He spent night after night in front of multiple roaring marshall stacks. The guys hearing was altered.

basile865
Senior Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:11 am
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by basile865 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:40 pm

Oh sure, I'm not saying he did not plug into the top left input, thats quite obvious and thats what always blows my mind. I dont get how he could run it like that.

But yes its very much the case that I have a bright rig that I have to dial in dark which probably just isnt helping things for loud volume situations. But I mean, is a metro plexi dark then? and you dial it in with plenty of treble and stuff?

I am thankful for EVERYBODY'S help. I have realized a lot in the past few weeks on where I need to go.

The first thing is going to be speakers. I am decided on g12H 30 watters. I am however, not decided on 75hz or 55hz or brand. There are two schools of thought/approach to where I'm going. One is a conversion to superbass spec's, and 75hz loaded cabs. The other is superlead with diff tubes and 55hz loaded cabs. I mean it seems to me that there are two sides aiming at the middle common ground. Which direction I go Im not sure, but being broke gives you plenty of time to decide. :mrgreen:

If I went with the 75hz/superbass direction, there are a lot more 75hz aftermarket brands that do it for half the price of scumback. Greg germino felt strongly about this combination of 75hz/superbass. He went into a few emails of long detail, and the guy isnt making a penny off of this, everything he's telling me to do are products he does not sell. I told him my money situation and he suggested avatar speakers. I was amazed when I looked at avatar's website today. You can get a loaded 4x12 through them, which is loaded with their hellatone 30's (made by celestion: g12h 30 watt 75hz model) but theyre put on a load for 15 hours to be broken in. Now you get all of that for under 500 bucks. If I decide on 75hz thats the way I'm going. You just simply can't beat that deal, and be it the BEST or not, itll be a vast improvement on my current cab.

If I went with the 55hz/superlead direction, it boils down to weber and scumback. Dan you've owned both and can speak up on whether or not the extra $240 is worth it with scumback. Unfortunitely going with the 55hz direction will cost over $1000 per cab which would take over a year for me to complete. But, if this direction leads me to believe its just simply the right choice then so be it and I will wait. Its all about acquiring true value to me. I'd hate to drop 1000 on a cab with scumbacks and then hear a seperate brand 75hz's and think "meh, its really not all that different." That would really piss me off. I'm busting ass at a dead end crap job to be able to slowly upgrade my system and it better damn well perform ya know? Everybody knows that/feels that way.

So this is where I currently lay at.

The transformer upgrade seemed pretty obvious to me, a Drake would be more organic and bluesy, and George sells them for 140 bucks. But, chances are jimi was using a dagnall in whatever head he was using on the Band of Gypsys and in germino's opinion, chris ******'s dagnall clone is "hands down" the best you can buy today. theyre more in the mercury magnetics pricing ballpark, but you do this once and your done with it, and the price difference is small in comparison to different speaker brands.

Dan, I dont know what really makes you feel the superbass just doesnt have it going on. Back when you had one maybe your speakers weren't the best choice?

So a whole bunch is up in the air, but atleast I'm beginning to understand and see the bigger picture in having the right gear for me.

jcs
Senior Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:31 am
Location: on a frickin hill

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by jcs » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:22 am

billy batz, i always hated celestion 75s until i plugged into a 1984 jcm 800 with the earliest 75s (very similar to my celestion 65s in tone response), i had a 30 day return period and i didnt really need another 4x12 cabinet but i kept the dang thing after playing my 71 marshall smallbox 50 (yngwie set up) and the 73 carlsbro 60tc thru it.

i'm near 50 years old now, i've played and heard a LOT of late 60s and early 70s marshall 4x12s, i know what pre rola celestions sound like.

as for hendrix imo, keep in mind the whole recording process,the microphones and jimis coiled cord ALL influence the tone that wound up on tape.

btw, i know where there is a refinned 68 strat for $5500, this guitar is not overly bright and sounds tremendous,,, there were simply incredible sounding strats in the late 60s and i am convinced hendrix was getting hand picked strats by the bundle at mannys in new york,his roadies went in and flipped the nut and jimi bent around the whammy bar to suit him..

Billy Batz
Senior Member
Posts: 8566
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by Billy Batz » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:51 pm

jcs wrote:billy batz, i always hated celestion 75s until i plugged into a 1984 jcm 800 with the earliest 75s (very similar to my celestion 65s in tone response), i had a 30 day return period and i didnt really need another 4x12 cabinet but i kept the dang thing after playing my 71 marshall smallbox 50 (yngwie set up) and the 73 carlsbro 60tc thru it.
Well, yeah, I was thinking of noting that thats only in regards to a NMV marshall. I know plenty of people like the 75s with high gain amps.

Billy Batz
Senior Member
Posts: 8566
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by Billy Batz » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:08 pm

basile865 wrote:Dan, I dont know what really makes you feel the superbass just doesnt have it going on. Back when you had one maybe your speakers weren't the best choice?
I still have one. I just dont have an original. I have an amp that switches between Lead and Bass. The one I use for BoG. Its like I said. Greg has his opinion and I have mine. Just remember. We may not know about the filmore shows but other shows around that time were definitely leads. Even back when I went this route I knew I was somewhat on an island because if you believe BoG was a Bass then by extension you have to believe he whipped out different amps just for that show. Not impossible. It was certainly the impetus for me to buy a vintage SB. But I feel like in regards to a bass, I was there, I exhausted every possible avenue I could while there to make it happen and it just didnt. When it comes down to it, if you want to know what really made me think it couldnt be a Bass or by extension a JTM45/100 as other people suggest, its that I couldnt and still cant get that throaty midrange going that the filmore shows have. Not even close.

You may be better off with going that route just for yourself not necessarily for BoG. But your acting as if the jury is closed because Germino said so. If you were to call up other amp manufacturers youd get a bunch of other suggestions for just as detailed and in depth a reason. Thats the problem. Youve developed entire ideas about gear based not on your own experience or even other guys experience but instead how you relate to the adjectives other guys use to describe their experience and thats the trap because in the end I guarantee you dont have that close a handle on this as you think and at some point your actually going to have to shell out the dough and settle the matter. Just l;ike the rest of us. Ive had an endless cycle of buying and selling to finance my next acquisition that goes back to when I was younger then you.

User avatar
razelfrax
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:13 am
Location: Toronto

Re: You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

Post by razelfrax » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:50 pm

Well said Mr Batz I think Mr Basile needs some smooth H speakers and a late 60's marshall or clone and from there its shades of grey really bass or lead just a matter of personal tuning . I wonder if hes using a different Mayer pedal for that throutyness as I hear him click on a pedal at 22 seconds that really thickens the tone in the who knows clip?
Very rough Demos lol http://www.reverbnation.com/slp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fender Supersonic
2x12 WGS et65's
Custom Shop S1 Tele Relic
Custom Shop 65 Lite Relic Strat

Post Reply