You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

[thousandshirts]

Oh well, SRV's tone is pretty easy to get close. I used to be an SRV nut until it came out in all my playing, enough for people who didnt know me could hear me play and be like oh so I can tell you like SRV.

Well what a relief for all of us that you've taken up Hendrix.

[thousandshirts]

Well it looks like we're layin this topic to rest.

At least it seemed like it at the time.

[basile865]

Careful guy, I wouldnt want your boyfriend getting jealous with the amount of time and effort you just spent searching the board for old posts of mine to comment on.

[thousandshirts]

Careful guy, I wouldnt want your boyfriend getting jealous with the amount of time and effort you just spent searching the board for old posts of mine to comment on.

There are actually web pages that you can browse to find insults and jokes. Try them, if you can figure out how to re-navigate the internet.

[Xplorer]

we must realize the tone we are chasing here has been remixed in the studio and may have sounded totaly different than it really did

i've put a file where you could hear some different recordings of that nights. without remix : just mix table, rehearsal recordings, different situations, and it gives a good idea of what it was, without remixing. it's still that band of gypsies tone ...
i have more recordings of that night, but in that file for example, you can hear gotta live together entirely, and it first sounds like remixed, and later in the song ( the moment where it was cut for the release version ) , it goes to a different kind of recording, poor quality. some parts that you can compare with the remixed version.
that's here : http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplorer]

One thing i suppose, is that BOG Tone is also 20 - 30 % thanks to the pickups of that time : i've got some museum quality recreation of this kind of grey bottom pickups, with a very different wire from today standards, and the bell tone of a strat is veeeery important to think about, it changes everything. I can compare this set i've got ( same old maple neck too ) , and some other modern pickups, and it's so different.
Jimi had a nice set into this black strat, and as you know, pickups of that time weren't equal from one to another one.
with some nice setups with just virtual amps ( as i still don't have this metroamp 69 i want ) , i can have a tone like 95 % 97% close to a nice version of voodoo chile 1968, that you can hear on the mix from martin scorsese for example ( or on my old lp's ) .
these pickups have the lowest inductance among all fender pickups, and they are made so differently from today pickups.
when played with other pickups, it's another tone, a whole other world ...........
i guess that when i'll have my metroamp 69, i'll sound very close ( i hope so ! ) , i think so.
also, i asked them voodoo : the pole heights are very important with hendrix sound : the "si" string has more power, and it's even better than with a set of right handed pickups.
yes, to me, 20% to even 40% of the BOG tone needs a good choice for the pickups. me : slider's pickups. 69

Thought I might throw this into the mix although again many have probably read this. Its an article on jimi's black strat which was left untouched after he played it last.

http://www.univibes.com/BlackStrat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice the pickup height isnt flat to the pickguard, it looks about average to me (with the possible exception of the neck pickup?). Also the incredibly light string gauge. On the BOG concert he was tuned a whole step down, with 9's talk about rubberbands! I cant believe he got as fat a tone with 9's. That amp mustve truly been a monster.

Theres something strange about the fact it had little to no fretwear. I mean the use it saw from 68-70 is moreso than the use my strat probably sees, I mean I play every day but not for hours. And even so, my strat needed a fret redress quite badly after 2 years or so. He must've had a light touch. It looks like the volume knobs numbers arent even worn off where mine are green or completely gone. I guess thats more to do with your own sweat.

I did a recording comparison of 9's 10's and 11's all in a row one day. The 11's had more beef to the tone but lacked definition and clarity, which the 9's had the most of. I now run 10's just because the 9's get too loose feeling on me. But then again maybe with a 7.25 radius and vintage frets and the only pure nickel strings available back then would influence it.

[Tone Slinger]

I think Hendrix only achieved that 'BOG' tone during those 4 sets of Dec. 31st and Jan. 1st. I mean, he got real close to it during alot of those Oct., Nov. and Dec. '69 'rehearsals' and jams, etc, but, not exactly. That being said, a whole lot of his tones aftar that werent really spectacular in comparison. Like anyone else who play's out, sometimes you get 'magic'. He got 'IT' tonewise during those sets.

I agree, a metro '69-'73 era Superlead with 6550 tubes along with a good strat (got to be a 6 screw bridge, with the ball end going the full distance in the block) will be as good as your gonna get.

[Xplorer]

I don't see why the guiar would sound differnt with a 6 screws bridge : the ball end do the same distance with a two points trem.

i suppose that the light strings he used, tuned low, with this particular set of pickups ( who have this personality that you can hear at some other concerts, or in studio, but who are revealed differently into this amp ... ), who's glassy, retaining the basse : this is just exactly this ( the same in the woodstock strat , but it was a different amp i guess , more glassy as well as the pickups ) look how special they are compared to some other fender sets ( no much wire on it, and a different wire thickness etc etc etc ) :

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 2759.l1259" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and then, knowing the character of these pickups, it can perhaps give some clues about the speakers theorys.
also, me too, just by hearing the clips of billy batz, i think i'll first try the 6550 , but i should perhaps find some NOS.
and also, these pickups were in a right handed guitar, but played lefty : the magnetic pole heights are different then ... and some stuffs from the fillmore concert appear suddenly more evident, into your hands, as i could try and compare. i think it is as important as the height of the whole neck pickup. the maple neck also sound different, and fits well the character of these pickups.
after all, the amp amplifys a filter of the strings.


this, and the amp, and some also talk about the room ( but i've let a link that shows how the original sound was edited, a lot !!! the entire version of gotta live together shows it a lot, and the chimey appears suddenly different when it's not edited, cleaned ... ) , and you have i guess ( this is hypothetic but we're not so far after all , this is not like saying together : do you think it is a fender or a marshall ? and the guitar : hmmmm two humbuckers or what ? ........ ) some of the most important parameters about this tone , but hey : they don't knowww .... what i knowww .... all the tiiime .... oh i don't knooow ...
after all it's nice like that isn't it ? it should stay a fantasy, but we still can have fun by approaching that sound a lot, still excited by the mystery arround this, and then, this tone will live forever thanks to this.

[Tone Slinger]

The 6 screw 'original' or 'vintage' style tremelo picks up more of the actual vibration of the guitar over a 'broader' range. The two BIG post's on the new style '2' pivot point lose alot of the complex mids of the 6 screw. The two pivot tremelo seems to scoop the tone a bit and make things sound a bit 'nicer', clear and refined. This might be good for some, but NOT HENDRIX !

Also, the two pivot point tremelo, like the Floyd Rose (the first 2 pivot point type bridge) doesnt get the same tremelo effect as the 6 screw. The 2 point 'over achieves' because it has a much quicker reaction and can dip lower.


I have studied Fender strats for yrs and have come to these conclusions.


The pu's in those cbs era strats (especially the '65 to '70 era) are VERY weak, to the point of being very ill suited to certain applications. They worked for Hendrix because of his big bad assed Marshalls, but through certain Fender amps (as documented on alot of his jams) the sound is very shrill, thin and spikey.


These are just my observations. I think the single biggest element though, is the original style bridge, along with tuning your amp to the right sound.

[Xplorer]

well, if you say so ... i should compare with a 6 screws on the same setup. maybe ... as the vibrations are transmitted by 6 screws, instead of the two points from fender ( not talking about the floyd rose, who has more metal , too different from the standard fender bridge ) . but i think it's exagerated, and it's not the point. Jimi allways had strats with 6 screw bridges, but the black and the white strats were sounding different.
i get so close to hendrix different sound with what i have, and these particulare setups, simply into crap virtual amps, set the right way. so when it'll be into nice clones, it'll be a pleasure for me ...

for the BOG tone, i still suggest to use the same weak pickups as he did, voodoo inverted like him, through the same amp. they are still very good, and they were heard on many other hendrix musics .... but through certain amps, i guess that yes, some would be better but not so much, simply different : some of the end 50' i guess. i've got some too, very SRV bell tone. i guess that hendrix had different pickups anyway at the time he mostly used fender amps.

hendrix had monster amps, plus fuzz, octavia .... and well, you can imagine how it can sound more controled when compensated with weak pickups. i would say they are weak and beautiful dark, deep and glassy, they are very beautiful. they are a big part of the character of the black strat from end 68.same for the white strat. ......... his favourites.and i think it would have the same tone on BOG with the white strat, just a little difference somewhere that made the black one better to him.
imagine that he used the black one at woodstock : it would have sound perhaps the same.
each has his recipes, and it evolves.

[Tone Slinger]

I agree. It is hard to describe certain things with words ya know ? Like, feeling came before words, so words are an attempt, to DESCRIBE what we feel. Very hard thing to do. I would use this analogy in describing how a 6 screw bridge differ's from a 2 point. "The 6 screw was/is the real ORIGINAL thing, and the 2 point is the 'virtual' type line 6 version".

I also agree, the white strat sounded different than the black one. It (white one) was clearer sounding, less gain. It had more high end, though both sounded very similar. No two pieces of Alder or maple sounds the same.

[Xplorer]

yeah, it is certainly a good idea to use the same bridge, i agree. for now, i have my 91 jeff beck strats, veery fat neck, and the maple neck strat like jimi. it's all good for me, but i like to try things like all of us, but as i have almost never any problem of detuning with these strats, i like it, and i still got a real strat tone.

no, i said that to me, the white and the black one maybe have a slight difference, as like you say, no piece of alder sounds the same, but as they were bought the same day, with i think, the same pickups, the same kind of neck, the glassy tone of the white one would have been the same with the black one : woodstock and fillmore concerts had a different tone just thanks to the different amp i suppose, the space, the settings ...
BUT, with an older strat, with more wire on the pickups ( also different kind, and different magnetic poles etc ... ) it would have sounded different. so this is a supposition that the black one would have sounded woodstock too, and the white one would have sounded fillmore too. but not with anoher strat ...

about jimi string specs, 38-9 ( and i wonder, for the rest, and i should try this setting, with the slide string too ) , it's funny because i remember jeff beck talking about jimi and him : jimi told him to use heavy strings and tune it low. jimi changed since i guess.


but i understand , and feel that these light strings, with such feeling and settings, headroom, made a part of this "wilde" kind of sound, on machine gun : some kind of distance, no reverb, but something , a chime thing. perhaps old strings, not brand new.
they are at the limit of what it sounds when you tune your guitar, with the strings like elastics, and it's a part of this kind of sound i think. then, with these special weak pickups, 42 awg, black, and forbon and etc ... then amplified this way, with no true bypass ... etc etc etc ... the resistor also counts : they were different at the time . some are more musical than some others. and earlier, these resistors ( i have some reproductions ) were some kind of candel thing , and waxed paper covering it.

finaly, there are some contrasts used in this bog tone ... these strings, tuned low, kind of warm sound, into some glassy pickups like this, a maple neck with cleaner tone , then effects, and this very thick tone amp ... then i don't know for the speakers, i don't know much about that yet. and then, the room. anyway, it's not a set of warm pickups into a distorted amp, no , this is a good combination of contrasts, then there's a wider diversity of reactions, into what he plays.

[Tone Slinger]

You seem to have it togather, in terms of getting to the specific's of Jimi's '69-'70 type tones.

Jimi had that very 'r&b/funk' sorta picking hand. He used medium guaged celluloid picks (really the only material choice then) . This let him have more 'expression' as far as the attack on the strings go. 9 guage strings tuned a half ,up to a whole step down are very slinky, so, one would not really want to use a heavy guage pick, as this would take away from some of the very 'slight' nuances Jimi got from the pick on the string.

I guess one of the main differences I hear between the white strat and the black one is that the white one seemed to have that sound of almost 'fretting out' while around the 14th or 15th fret, like on 'Foxey Lady' at Rainbow Bridge, or 'Izabella' at Woodstock. I got the feeling that if those licks had been played unplugged on the white strat, that you would have heard it on he verge of that wierd almost fretting out sound. This gave it that distinctive high end, piercing sound, that the black one didnt have. Not certain, but the set-up on the two strats (mainly neck tension /rod adjustment probably) seemed to be the main difference in sound difference.

[Xplorer]

what's "fretting out" ? english isn't my first language like french.

yeah, the truss rod : the tension : i'd like to try different settings, and tune it just like a string, other than adjusting the neck curve. Yeah, i think too that the way it is tuned is a part of the frequency/vibration of the guitar.

[Tone Slinger]

Fretting out, means that the string's vibration has been stopped or lessened to some extent. On those 7 1/4 radius strats, string bending beyond a step or two often results in this. If you get a partial 'fret out' on a note (mainly on the high e and b strings) you can get a wierd sort of 'piercing' biting sound. Hendrix's white strat had alot of that going on around the 14th and 15th fret area on bends on Izabella and foxy lady.