Newbie starting low for a Ceriatone 2204

[demonufo]

Never tried them myself. Audio stuff doesn't necessarily work well in guitar amp builds (as most people who have tried polypropylene caps will tell you) but I see no reason why they wouldn't work well.

[hopkinWFG]

well i just cant rule out which to go... think maybe its always been a controversy of which to go with... Metal film or carbon film....

have heard from the famous aiken amp technical page where states using Metal Film would rule out much of the noise issue... but i guess it refers to white noise...and the other hand where they says carbon composite resistors would sounded "better" as they drift their values and thus to sound more "warm"...

as said is wire wound resistors > Metal Film > Carbon Film and lastly Carbon composite... has anyone uses pure metal film for their build and higher grade for screens and V1 with wire wound? if yes does it sounds stiff? or organic? hifi?

i dont know if any "boutique" amp builders uses such high grade resistors haven checked but i remember opening up my VHT 50CL seeing the white block named Xicon and now that i know its resistor 5watts that couples on the output tubes... cost price ? Mmmm perhaps its seen more as in practicability and sensibility for boutique company to rule out which to take on and at the same time never compromises on their boutique tone?

i cant imaging if i uses only MF "Vishays" throughout my build as i have no problem getting them locally but whats up with the "high end" Carbon films out there ? does it really matters on which to use for a consistant tone? or its upon manufacturer and brands out there that have such quality assurances in them?

is like a Metal Film by Vishays that costs only few cents each and other hand we have brands like Rikenohm that rate their carbon films at about 2 USD each?

Metal Film or Carbon ? or is Rikenohm or Vishays? tone?

[demonufo]

Only time I tried metal films it was a basic type, and the result was pretty unastounding. Very, well, boring really. The ONLY MF type I would consider using are those non-inductive, non-magnetic, brown Dale Vishays.

I have in my build currently a full set of the blue Riken Ohm Carbon Composite/Carbon Film (they are actually sort of halfway between the two types, but without the drawbacks of carbon composites) resistors (albeit all 1 and 2 watt as I couldn't find many 1/2watt values) and in all honesty, I preferred the Pihers. But again, I couldn't get a full set of Pihers without spending lots of money, and the Riken Ohm were ridiculously expensive enough. I was perfectly happy with Kiwames carbon films in my build (Koa Speer SPR2 and SPR1/2) but they were on my old board, and I don't really plan on eternally messing around with my build the way it is now, so the Rikens remain for that reason only.

With Carbon Composites, they are often just too unreliable in that the soak up moisture, so for me, I wouldn't bother with them unless vintage repairs, or a truly vintage clone. Since Marshall stopped using them in the early 70's they're not really appropriate for a 2204 build anyway.

Xicon make some pretty good resistors. The metropoulos amps use 1W Xicons, and they're pretty good, but I definitely prefer the Koa Speers. 1W is overkill in most positions anyway (except those that require 2W of course) but they look more vintage accurate, hence why George used them.

[neikeel]

For me it is 1w xicons vs 1/2w Pihers.

[ivan H]

Hi, I have used the Vishay Dale metal film resistors mentioned above in a 50 watt build, mostly 1 watt with a few 1/2 watts, along with Larry's grounding scheme & the amp has an extremely low noise floor. I've heard metal films can feel/sound stiff & sterile in a guitar amp but I dont find that with these. I've also had a couple of friends borrow the amp for gigs & no one has not liked it, nor had any complaints of any ill effects of the resistors on the feel or sound of the amp.The resistors are copper leaded, non inductive & non magnetic (I tried sticking them to a strongish magnet). I'm about to use them again in an added tube 2204 (Caswell #39) type build. Hope this helps. Cheers

[hopkinWFG]

Mmmm thanks for the input guys but thinking again ill like to go with kiwame carbon films.. but i have wattage issues as in general 2204 uses 1 watt resistor but it be ok to getta 2 watt? ill get higher current drawn ? or how does it affect the tone ?

[demonufo]

Mmmm thanks for the input guys but thinking again ill like to go with kiwame carbon films.. but i have wattage issues as in general 2204 uses 1 watt resistor but it be ok to getta 2 watt? ill get higher current drawn ? or how does it affect the tone ?

Koa Speer SPR resistors, ARE Kiwames, or rather should I say, Kiwames are re-branded Koa Speer SPR's.

2204 doesn't use any 1watt resistors anywhere. They are all 1/2watt except for the necessary 2W positions. Use a higher power rated resistor throughout and you'll generally end up with a cleaner amp with less of the spurious distortions that resistors relatively near their rated power handling (in the case of some plate resistors for example) give you. This is probably one of the reasons that I was not "over-enamoured" with my Riken-Ohm's. Maybe...

[hopkinWFG]

ohh... is lucky that i asked... cause i basically transposed the parts to be "2204" from a 50watt metro amp plexi instructions and parts list ... btw from the metro plexi parts list i got it basically made up with all 1 watt resistors on the turret board..the screens were 2watts thou....can i just say that a 2204 as mentioned uses half watt resistor thru out on the turret ? or is there any source where i could download from for a 2204 parts list on the exact rated components?

[neikeel]

Mmmm thanks for the input guys but thinking again ill like to go with kiwame carbon films.. but i have wattage issues as in general 2204 uses 1 watt resistor but it be ok to getta 2 watt? ill get higher current drawn ? or how does it affect the tone ?

Koa Speer SPR resistors, ARE Kiwames, or rather should I say, Kiwames are re-branded Koa Speer SPR's.

2204 doesn't use any 1watt resistors anywhere. They are all 1/2watt except for the necessary 2W positions. Use a higher power rated resistor throughout and you'll generally end up with a cleaner amp with less of the spurious distortions that resistors relatively near their rated power handling (in the case of some plate resistors for example) give you. This is probably one of the reasons that I was not "over-enamoured" with my Riken-Ohm's. Maybe...

But I like some of those noises! In the same way I like the weird harmonics that over driving an amp gives you, but mind you I also like slightly mismatched output valves and old pulsonic speakers, more musical, IMO. Now it were a hifi amp.......

Others will have lots more experience than me but in the amps I have built and worked on (modded, unmodded, swapped values, types etc) the overall product can be equal to or greater than the sum of the parts, or not. ie you can build an ok one and you can build a more than ok one. Marshall had the same issues, particularly in the 60's. I have found my recipe that (usually) works, but you will have to see what you come up with. After the elation and thrill of building your own amp that works and, to quote a rather over used expression, 'sounds killer' when you get to live with it, play other amps with different set ups and guitars you may find some end up being a little dull and one dimensional.
Have fun building, see what gives

[demonufo]

But I like some of those noises!

Exactly. I really don't dig over-rated resistors. Cork-sniffing at it's absolute finest here.

Back to the OP...
Those building ultra-high gain amps however, will appreciate over-rated resistors (and often metal film too) to help keep the noise floor down, and possibly even more importantly, a GOOD grounding scheme. Really not the case here though, although improved grounding is always a good idea. Read up on the Larry scheme, and if you use the search engine carefully, I think I recall a 2204 specific version of the Larry scheme.

If you were possibly interested in putting a Post Phase Inverter Master Volume in, as well as the standard Pre PIMV, it would be a wise idea to install it where the presence control would be, and to put the presence control at the BACK of the amp, sharing it's ground with the speaker jacks. There are at least two reasons why putting this at the back of the amp is a good idea. Firstly, it is a much better place to ground it, since that's where it actually lies in the circuit, rather than being anywhere near the EQ controls other than placement on the faceplate, and secondly the wires in the negative feedback loop (purple) can transmit a lot of noise and other crap elsewhere in the circuit, and it's best to keep these as far away from anything else as possible. Especially avoiding closely running in parallel to other leads.

[hopkinWFG]

so ill general out the resistor valve to be half watts for the turret board?

[neikeel]

Not to hijack, but as far as Larrys grounding scheme. I've a 50 watter with the traditional grounding, is there anything specific that *jumps out* to help when converting to a 2204 without going *full scheme*?

I use SDMs scheme (I do not need to run the preamp ground to the PT). That has preamp bus separate from the presence pot (grounded to PI cap earth. The mains in has dedicated lug and I run a ground from the bias caps/pot back to the output valves. Works for me

http://home.comcast.net/~jbjdav26/2204/2203altgrnd.jpg

What interests me is why my originals can be dead quiet too with original ex-factory grounding

[neikeel]

That is really weird!

I posted my post that looks to be at 4.57am (9 27 GMT+1) in direct reply to OnTheFritz timed at 5.23am.

Either the board is screwed or my ESP is really on the ball

[OnTheFritz]

Not to hijack, but as far as Larrys grounding scheme. I've a 50 watter with the traditional grounding, is there anything specific that *jumps out* to help when converting to a 2204 without going *full scheme*?

[hopkinWFG]

think ill just conclude the koa speer half watts since i could all get it locally but is not their spr series thou..so ill just let the half watts resistor settle down for the turret board and let the rest of the 2watts be it...maybe ill do a draw out and shap shot a post on the wattage values brands on resistors, filter caps, coupling caps too... and thoese smaller film caps rated on turret board..

will be signing up for brian set of tranny and chassis....smells the burning sensation sooner...