Bridge Pickups in a Gibson SG Standard

[maltone]

Tone Slinger, Lefty Lou — I know, I was debating keeping the GA overwound, but it had a nickel cover — I bought it that way purely for aesthetics. My SD is uncovered, double cream.

Another segue, I just realized today that the Gibson 57 Classic Plus has an A2 magnet, wound to 8.3K. I was always under the impression it was an A5. Now that explains the softness to its feel. In contrast, the Gibson Burstbucker Pro, which I've also tried in a Les Paul, sounded great, detailed, very crisp - but it was very bright. I knew the BBP had an A5 in it, but had no idea it's output is exactly the same as the 57 classic +. Both pickups output at 8.3K — according to Gibson.

What Gibson doesn't tell you is what wire guage they used for either pickup, but I guess we'd have to assume it's AWG42? But they do say that the 57 classic + used enamel coated wiring, whereas the BBP has "crystalline clarity derived from its slightly unmatched bobbin windings"

Left Lou, I know about Zhangbuckers, I might even send him an e-mail, and explain that I really like BB Pros, but if he was to design his own version of it, what would he do differently, if anything?

If the 57 Classic + with it's A2 mag is rated at 8.3K, same output as the BBP with it's A5, what would be the expected tonal result of an A5 in the classic +? — I could also just buy one, and buy a few different magnets to try them out, but I'd rather buy a used 57 classic plus first, — uncovered, or take the cover off.

[maltone]

That's a good point Lefty, the change in tone of different speakers, pedals. But, I'm very fortunate, in that firstly, I SUCK as a guitar player. I'm actually a drummer, who enjoys plugging into a Marshall with an SG, and playing along to AC/DC tunes, usually playing the same rhythm parts and riffs, over and over until I think I've nailed them.

HA, LOL, I'm much more a hobbyist, who got sucked into the "why does it sound that way, or NOT this way" etc. I don't buy "gear" I'm not really into "gear". I just like good sounds, good old rock n' roll tones. I don't have any pedals, but a Marshall DSL-100 set to a classic rock gain type of setting, and a 2X12 cab with V30's.

I basically just plug straight in, and riff away. I'm not into "different" sounds, or tonal variances. I'm lucking that I only really love that 1 sound, and only know that 1 sound — for me playing along to stuff, since I don't play in a band. But because of that, I can hear every nuance through the speakers, there's nothing clouding the signal, no delay, reverb, pedals, just volume tone controls and gain, so I sometimes get bored, or tired of the same THICK, pushed sound. I like that upper mid crispness and snap of the 57 classic +, or BBP - I just don't own any to try out and swap magnets.

I got tricked into loving the Dimarzio SD (which don't get me wrong is a fantastic classic sound) but my ears want to hear something sweeter, detailed and crisp in the mids - probably more of a vintage or slightly hotter vintage PAF pickup.

So I think for now, I'll try to find a used Gibson 57 Classic +, and swap out the A2 for an A5, and then even try an A8, we'll see what happens. Cheers.

[Lefty Lou]

Tone Slinger, Lefty Lou — I know, I was debating keeping the GA overwound, but it had a nickel cover — I bought it that way purely for aesthetics. My SD is uncovered, double cream.

Another segue, I just realized today that the Gibson 57 Classic Plus has an A2 magnet, wound to 8.3K. I was always under the impression it was an A5. Now that explains the softness to its feel. In contrast, the Gibson Burstbucker Pro, which I've also tried in a Les Paul, sounded great, detailed, very crisp - but it was very bright. I knew the BBP had an A5 in it, but had no idea it's output is exactly the same as the 57 classic +. Both pickups output at 8.3K — according to Gibson.

What Gibson doesn't tell you is what wire guage they used for either pickup, but I guess we'd have to assume it's AWG42? But they do say that the 57 classic + used enamel coated wiring, whereas the BBP has "crystalline clarity derived from its slightly unmatched bobbin windings"

Left Lou, I know about Zhangbuckers, I might even send him an e-mail, and explain that I really like BB Pros, but if he was to design his own version of it, what would he do differently, if anything?

If the 57 Classic + with it's A2 mag is rated at 8.3K, same output as the BBP with it's A5, what would be the expected tonal result of an A5 in the classic +? — I could also just buy one, and buy a few different magnets to try them out, but I'd rather buy a used 57 classic plus first, — uncovered, or take the cover off.

You know, I like the A2 PAF clones as well as the A5 PAF clones, as they both have their own niche where they shine equally well. The first or earliest BB pups utilized A2's, and I believe they came out with the first production Gary Moore signature Les Paul guitars. Gibson's wire gauge is AWG42. Here's an interesting note, when I had a good job and money pre-Obama, I purchased a Tom Holmes HB set for a Les Paul Premium Plus guitar that had BBP A5. Now these BBP pups really weren't bad pickups but I had G.A.S. and was n----- rich, so I just had to try them. You know what I found out, the sound (to my ears) was similar enough NOT to warrant the expensive price tag that the Tom Holmes humbuckers came with. The Holmes pickups seemed to be more open, but that could be attributed to non-potting versus potting. I won't say the Holmes pups are bad because they are not. It's just that I started wondering about the necessity and the cost involved in purchasing them. The Holmes pups can be heard on the DVD, "Gary Moore & Friends - One Night In Dublin A Tribute To Phil Lynott" when Gary plays his charcoal Gibson Les Paul with the quilt top.

[Tone Slinger]

Oh, so your a drummer. That throws a wrench in it,cause with anything else, the more time you spend with something (like playing the guitar), the more you realize what works in various scenario's. I'd be of the impression that most drummers, who play a little guitar on the side, would be into active pu's.No lag, but expediency,like a drum head. Be it clean or dirty, the active pu's are precise as hell.

[Lefty Lou]

This is the thing about symmetrical and non-symmetrical wound coils in humbuckers. The closer you come to matching coils the more frequency cancellation occurs (not a good thing). The trick is to get close enough to matching that you reduce hum noticeably but don't cancel out the great harmonics and audibly pleasing frequencies. Gibson's Leesona didn't allow for that kind of accuracy back then (i.e. duplicate coils) as where nowadays it's possible. The "crystalline clarity" is gained by mis-matching the coils such that those frequencies that allow for that clarity are not "cancelled out".

As for David Plummer at Zhangbucker, he might have different scatter wound techniques/methods, and/or alternate magnet types to offer. Remember the coil and "the wind" is everything. I recently found out that Gibson DID order and utilize A4 magnets in some of their PAF pups. A copy of a magnet order by Gibson during that period of history verifies this. Dave could even offer up an A4 or possibly A8 magnet.

I have the 57' Classics in a 1959 Gibson ES-335 Dot Neck reissue guitar, and Gibson Custom Shop SG guitar. I like them the way they are and haven't removed them even though I have a brand new/unused set of WCR Crossroads and WCR Moore/Green humbucker pup sets. The 57' classics are supposed to be Gibson's PAF attempt with mismatched coils, lack of potting etc. therefore if you switched to A5 magnets your sound should be just like a PAF set, only with A5's circa 65' and later.

[Lefty Lou]

Oh, so your a drummer. That throws a wrench in it,cause with anything else, the more time you spend with something (like playing the guitar), the more you realize what works in various scenario's. I'd be of the impression that most drummers, who play a little guitar on the side, would be into active pu's.No lag, but expediency,like a drum head. Be it clean or dirty, the active pu's are precise as hell.

Who's the drummer? Who came in the room?

[maltone]

Tone Slinger, yeap, a drummer, and no, I hate active pickups. I have friends with them, not classic or "rock n' roll" enough for me. I'm an old soul. I like AC/DC, The Stones, Bowie, Aerosmith, The Byrds, CSNY right up to opera and classical.

But when I'm rocking out in my basement alone, I want that detail and snarl that I hear on recordings. It's not always possible, but most of the time I get close enough depending on how I dial in the amp to be somewhat satisfied.

Lefty, you said:

The closer you come to matching coils the more frequency cancellation occurs (not a good thing). The trick is to get close enough to matching that you reduce hum noticeably but don't cancel out the great harmonics and audibly pleasing frequencies

— Now the BBP is marketed on the Gibson site as "having a characteristic sweet harmonic complexity and crystalline clarity derive from its slightly unmatched bobbin windings. Alnico 5 magnets are used in place of the traditional Alnico 2 yielding fatter, meatier tone with more drive and attack and provides classic Gibson "Patent Applied For" tone with a hint of attitude."

With that said, why wouldn't they have made the 57 Classic + with mismatched coils? If you did that, and added an A5, would the Classic + all of a sudden become a BBP?

As of hours ago, after searching the notion of magnet swapping, I came across this at the Seymour Duncan Forum - which I'm not a member of: http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/show ... ith-A5-mag

This one guy asked about swapping the A2 in the classic + for an A5. Another guy responded saying:
"This is the best Gibson p'up to go with an Alnico 8 magnet."

And yet another guy suggested: "You don't have to do a magnet swap to change a pickup's voicing. Throw some hex head screws in place of the fillisters under the E, A, and perhaps the D string and you'll get a tighter low end without mucking with the mids or boosting treble on the high strings." — I kind of like this idea the best, and it seems less intrusive.

Questions:

1) What type of hex head screws? Usually they only come in stainless steel, but if you had say brass, or titanium, would that make a difference tonally?

2) What would be the outcome if you replaced the fillister screws on an open coil 57 Classic + with hex screws in all positions?

3) Next, if you swap a magnet, is there any concern about messing with the wax - seal of everything inside? Do you have to have it re-potted?

Much thanks guys. This has turned into an interesting topic of discussion for me.

[Lefty Lou]

Tone Slinger, yeap, a drummer, and no, I hate active pickups. I have friends with them, not classic or "rock n' roll" enough for me. I'm an old soul. I like AC/DC, The Stones, Bowie, Aerosmith, The Byrds, CSNY right up to opera and classical.

But when I'm rocking out in my basement alone, I want that detail and snarl that I hear on recordings. It's not always possible, but most of the time I get close enough depending on how I dial in the amp to be somewhat satisfied.

Lefty, you said:

The closer you come to matching coils the more frequency cancellation occurs (not a good thing). The trick is to get close enough to matching that you reduce hum noticeably but don't cancel out the great harmonics and audibly pleasing frequencies

— Now the BBP is marketed on the Gibson site as "having a characteristic sweet harmonic complexity and crystalline clarity derive from its slightly unmatched bobbin windings. Alnico 5 magnets are used in place of the traditional Alnico 2 yielding fatter, meatier tone with more drive and attack and provides classic Gibson "Patent Applied For" tone with a hint of attitude."

With that said, why wouldn't they have made the 57 Classic + with mismatched coils? If you did that, and added an A5, would the Classic + all of a sudden become a BBP?

As of hours ago, after searching the notion of magnet swapping, I came across this at the Seymour Duncan Forum - which I'm not a member of: http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/show ... ith-A5-mag

This one guy asked about swapping the A2 in the classic + for an A5. Another guy responded saying:
"This is the best Gibson p'up to go with an Alnico 8 magnet."

And yet another guy suggested: "You don't have to do a magnet swap to change a pickup's voicing. Throw some hex head screws in place of the fillisters under the E, A, and perhaps the D string and you'll get a tighter low end without mucking with the mids or boosting treble on the high strings." — I kind of like this idea the best, and it seems less intrusive.

Questions:

1) What type of hex head screws? Usually they only come in stainless steel, but if you had say brass, or titanium, would that make a difference tonally?

2) What would be the outcome if you replaced the fillister screws on an open coil 57 Classic + with hex screws in all positions?

3) Next, if you swap a magnet, is there any concern about messing with the wax - seal of everything inside? Do you have to have it re-potted?

Much thanks guys. This has turned into an interesting topic of discussion for me.

Everbody's a pickup specialist. LOL And I'm definitely not saying that I am, even though I've poured over the subject for years. None of it actually counts until one has extensive experience in the pickup winding process, and not just a few years of experience.

1) The hex screws being referred to were common to vintage DiMarzio pickups and were also used in some Japanese guitar (brand/model) pickups. I haven't used DiMarzio humbuckers since DiMarzio first introduced their PAF humbucker line. The screw's metal composition needs to exhibit good magnetic conductive properties. For that very reason, brass and titanium can be ruled out. Adjustable fillister screw or hex screw dimensions and shape have more effect on the sound of the pup in this instance. Some pickup winders will say specific ratios of elements within alnico magnets make a difference to the overall sound, as vintage alnico magnet compositions utilized different elemental ratios than the alnico magnets produced today. I would imagine the magnetically conductive properties of fillister screws or hex screws would also make a great difference. Somewhat similar to the differences that Tele aficionados point out when comparing cold rolled steel tele bridges versus hot rolled stamped steel bridges. Supposedly the cold rolled steel greatly increases the "twang factor".

2) You'd have a DiMarzio pup.

3) It's the coil(s) that are either partially dipped or "saturated" in wax. If a magnet was stuck in place so to speak, the bottom plate could be slightly heated to release the magnet (no big deal) and when replaced, small drops of silicon can be used to hold the bar magnet in place.

[Tone Slinger]

All great points made by LeftyLou there .If there isanything to add to that, I'd say this:

The hex screws, to me, seem contrary to what the guy on the S. Duncan site posted. They have a big 'hex' crater that dips way down in the middle of each screw. This would 'widen' the magnetic field because the middle of the screw isnt there (the hex hole). By default this would mess with transient expediency. Compare a Dimarzio Super distortion (hex screws) to a Duncan Custom (slug/adjustable). They are both around 14k awg 43wire, and both use a ceramic magnet (with the DSD'smagnet being slightly bigger). The DSD is less defined sounding and the Custom is more precise, concerning attack speed,like muted pedal tones/palm mutes.
Imo, the best thing is a double set of the sloted screws,IF, what your trying to do is tune the tightness of the pu. The Duncan 'Full Shred' and Screamin Demon (as well as the old Holdsworth model) both have the double set of slotted screws and both have great clarity.

In the end though, you have SO many ideas going on concerning pu's.I say to have fun and experiment. Smits pu's (they used to run an ad here on Metro) are great to talk to as well, and is up for trying about anything

[maltone]

Lefty and Tone Slinger, thanks to both of you for all your replies. I think I'm settled on a few things...

I just did some more listening, and I think I may have found THE pickup for what I want to hear, but never really heard one before. The Gibson BB3 — open coil, in Zebra of course.

Just for kicks: Listen to the portion of this BB3 clip from 6:40 — 6:55:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om5Ub3gbWtA He speaks only in German, but listen to those short punchy A and G chords he's playing. THAT'S the sound. Much crisper, than my Super D, and has that pronounced midrange... EEEOWWNG thing. — I LOVE that.

From what I've found out, the BB3 is basically made of mismatched coils, an A2 mag, but wound hotter than a 57 classic +, and definitely has more bite, and midrange.

[Lefty Lou]

Now for the really fun part. Every pickup will sound different in different guitars, like swapping single coils out in different strat bodies, which is understood. If one really gets into the semantics behind pickup design and what does or doesn't work we'd all be better off to be experienced pup winders to wind our own sets to see what personally works for us and our guitars. It can get darn expensive going the consumer route. Magnets in humbuckers are easy enough to "swap" out but, when it comes to coils it's a different game altogether because now you have to look at: type and brand of wire, wire gauge, wire insulation coating, condition of wire insulation coating, type of insulation, thickness of insulation, diameter of wire as it is stretched and relaxed, scatter wound versus "Josie" wound versus other special coil winds, etc.

You can get too deeply involved into the specifics of equipment and lose sight of the forest for the trees if you catch my drift. If I had the money, I might have tried out the Parsons Street PAF's as they're a little cheaper than the Duncan Antiquity Humbuckers but, I do love my Duncan Antiquity Humbuckers in my 89' Greco SG and they're not coming out. I have Gibson 57's in my custom shop 61' Gibson SG reissue and they sound great but, I absolutely love my 89' Greco SG with the Duncan's more.

[Lefty Lou]

One note on matched and mismatched coils. They're all mismatched to differing extents because Again if you get too close to matching coils you might have a really "quiet" humbucker but it will be tonally lacking with certain specific frequencies.

[maltone]

Lou, what are your thoughts on the BB3? I had no idea it was like a higher output 57 classic Plus. I'm starting to get the impression, that since the BB3, and BBPRO are both mistmatched coils, BB3 = A2, BBPRO = A5, there's not much difference between them, except the magnet, and that the BBPRO is potted.

I just REALLY love that tone that guy got in the clip I attached. It's snappy, honky, bites, yet sounds very natural and organic, not so PUSHED like the SD.

[Lefty Lou]

Lou, what are your thoughts on the BB3? I had no idea it was like a higher output 57 classic Plus. I'm starting to get the impression, that since the BB3, and BBPRO are both mistmatched coils, BB3 = A2, BBPRO = A5, there's not much difference between them, except the magnet, and that the BBPRO is potted.

I just REALLY love that tone that guy got in the clip I attached. It's snappy, honky, bites, yet sounds very natural and organic, not so PUSHED like the SD.

I've had BBPRO A5 1 & 2s in two of my Gibson LPPP guitars. They remind me of Gary Moore's tone as the tone is brighter with a tighter low end and stinging highs, and most likely why they're potted which rounds out the tone somewhat. I understand the original BBs are similar to 57s and should have the warmer tone and low end response with smooth, singing creamy highs. The A2 BB pickups should compress quicker than the A5 BBPRO pickups when pushed, and approach a controlled microphonic pre-feedback tone when unpotted (if they're wound properly).

Here's a good comparison for you, A2 PAFs are similar to a tube amp with a tube rectifier and EL34 tubes, the amp "gives" back in a nice musical way when pushed. Great for blues players, and classic rockers. A5 PAF pickups are like tube amps with solid state rectifiers and 6550 tubes that provide more clarity, punch, and detail pre-compression. Great for metal players, and classic rock.

[maltone]

I ordered a BB3 yesterday from Amplified Parts, open coil, in Zebra. Can't find one of those around my parts - everyone is terrified to stock anything other than the BB3, 57's etc, afraid they won't sell.

If I find it "gives" too much, I'll swap the magnet for an A5, or even try an A8, just to see. Either way, I have a higher gain Marshall, a DSL-100, and I'm sure I can easily dial in a classic rock tone on my amp, with a bit more clarity and that natural upper mid bite the BB3 seems to have. I've learned that my ears favour mids, and upper mids, over low mids.

I don't get the impression that it's a "dark" pickup. I'm pretty sure my SG Standard is a warmer sounding guitar, compared to say a Gibson Les Paul Traditional. You'd think with all that wood, it'd be dark and thick, but when I played the Traditional, it SPANKED in a natrual midrangey kind of way — unplugged, truly great sound and feel. I think a BB3 in THAT guitar would be THE SHIT.