Which to Build for JMH - The Dilemma

[Xplorer]

ha ha ha you got me ! indeed.

i don't remember how we went ( again ) on the bog subject ( maybe because of my obsession for it ) but it's interesting for the jimi hendrix's amp build dilemma i'd say, since IMHO both superleads and a 45/100 could be heard at the various Fillmore east concerts.

Also, here is the video i was talking about, in the beginning, where you can see behind the amps, also, they're superleads i think, and it sounds like it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2pNnk6px7E[/youtube]

another one with these bog 's superleads, who knows, here starting from about 3:54,
and the recording is also different, more from the public hearing the stage i'd say

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPLkCJ7t ... page#t=232[/youtube]

and now, with a 45/100 i think, and it sounds different :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIXCuGEWZgE[/youtube]

actualy , hearing these again, it's a bit confusing. maybe both are with a 45/100, just with a different recording quality.
This should be more obvious, comparing the isle of whight's Machine gun, and the fillmore's Machine gun :

superlead 69 :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5WLFQx0AhM[/youtube]

45/100, something's different, whatever the recording is, it's not related to the recording.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6PdshmkdYM[/youtube]

another version i first thought was a superlead but now i've doubts :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP_7RvFBgck[/youtube]

another Fillmore machine gun :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4QNT6bnZ0Q[/youtube]

and wow, never heard this one before, ( not totaly sure it's the Fillmore though ) , fantastic univibe sound. more a superlead i'd say.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qOwplv1Ny8[/youtube]

[Roe]

I guess Jimi used mostly newish 1959s in 1969 and 1970, incl. BoG. Many 1959s can get a good hendrix tone with a 820R, not 2k7, cathode resistor on v1b.

I'd try 32uf on the screens and 64 or 80uf on the PI

[Xplorer]

interesting. that's a cool mod to do, i'll try, if i'll remember, thanks Roe.

[Roe]

interesting. that's a cool mod to do, i'll try, if i'll remember, thanks Roe.

actually its the stock 1968-69 specs. the 2k7 only came later

[Xplorer]

that's maybe why i don't hear bog totaly with my metro build. it's a 69 version, with a 2k7 in parrallel with a 0.68 uf.

But i instantly recognize bog when i play through the 45/100, easy, while the 69 can't get there 100 %, something's missing, and some features of the sound shouldn't be there.

ok, btw i asked brian a power transformer for my second 45/100 which will feature several mods, and why not a blackflag output transformer if i change it. and i'm not too far from a second SL 69 all nos, so i should probably get the evolution of the early marshalls instead, better :

a 1966 45/100, then a 1967 blackflag, then a 68 instead of a second 69, and then a 69
talking about dilemma .... ha ha

[Roe]

the BoG sound is elusive. Someone on this board posted clips of the raw guitar tracks some time ago, and they sounded less compressed, less distorted and brighter. They were very powerful, articulated and clean. It sounded like a 1959 with 6550s and an axis fuzz used almost as a clean boost

[Lefty Lou]

the BoG sound is elusive. Someone on this board posted clips of the raw guitar tracks some time ago, and they sounded less compressed, less distorted and brighter. They were very powerful, articulated and clean. It sounded like a 1959 with 6550s and an axis fuzz used almost as a clean boost

People often forget what is heard on recordings can be vastly different from the live sound. Case in point, on a forum discussion a point was made about the CatalinBread RAH pedal (which emulates Jimmy Page's Custom Hiwatt amp from the Royal Albert Hall performances). The point made was that the "inputs" of the analog tape recorders used to record the RAH performances were overloaded which could "color" the actual live sound notably. So, the recorded playback was not truly representative of the actual live recorded sound.

[Lefty Lou]

ha ha ha you got me ! indeed.

The actual story is true. There was a guy that was filming what we would nowadays call a "bootleg", and it just so happened when the film crew ran out of film, this individual just happened to have recorded some missing parts of the Woodstock Hendrix performances, so that today we have a more accurate representation of what really went on there.

i don't remember how we went ( again ) on the bog subject ( maybe because of my obsession for it ) but it's interesting for the jimi hendrix's amp build dilemma i'd say, since IMHO both superleads and a 45/100 could be heard at the various Fillmore east concerts.

Also, here is the video i was talking about, in the beginning, where you can see behind the amps, also, they're superleads i think, and it sounds like it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2pNnk6px7E[/youtube]

another one with these bog 's superleads, who knows, here starting from about 3:54,
and the recording is also different, more from the public hearing the stage i'd say

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPLkCJ7t ... page#t=232[/youtube]

and now, with a 45/100 i think, and it sounds different :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIXCuGEWZgE[/youtube]

actualy , hearing these again, it's a bit confusing. maybe both are with a 45/100, just with a different recording quality.
This should be more obvious, comparing the isle of whight's Machine gun, and the fillmore's Machine gun :

superlead 69 :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5WLFQx0AhM[/youtube]

45/100, something's different, whatever the recording is, it's not related to the recording.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6PdshmkdYM[/youtube]

another version i first thought was a superlead but now i've doubts :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP_7RvFBgck[/youtube]

another Fillmore machine gun :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4QNT6bnZ0Q[/youtube]

and wow, never heard this one before, ( not totaly sure it's the Fillmore though ) , fantastic univibe sound. more a superlead i'd say.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qOwplv1Ny8[/youtube]

[shakti]

The BOG tone is my next endeavour. Will be building a '69 SL very shortly, and am trying to get a good Strat together to cover late period Jimi.

If you listen to the original BOG album, then the Fillmore East 2CD, the tones vary a little bit. Possibly due to different nights, different mic placement, different mixing etc. But at its base is a tone like Roe describes - quite dry and fairly bright, but with a warm "earthiness" to it. Particularly the tracks on CD2 that are from Jan 1 have a beautiful tone that's very similar to the RAH tone back in Feb '69.

I used to own a Japanese '67 RI Strat with the maple cap fretboard and CS69 PUs. It did get a fair BOG tone into my '68 12 series build, but not 100% there. The 12 series is a little too muddy, so I am hoping the stiffer filtering of a 69 will take it closer. I also built my 12-series with a 2k7 on V1 cathode, but will change to 820R. TBH, I prefered 2k7 at the time as I felt it sounded a bit cleaner which went well with the soft feel of a 12-series, but I will try it again.

I still think '69 and '70 is Super Leads throughout, though it is of course perfectly possible that a Super Bass was used now and then, either by accident, as backup, or because he liked it. What I don't buy is that the 45/100 magically appeared for one show and one night only. For Jimi, these shows were contractual obligation shows, not some super special occasion.

[Lefty Lou]

It's been said by many people that had anything to do with his equipment in one way or another that he used what was readily available to him at the time (off the shelf). I believe it was stated that the 67' Rich Dickinson Super Lead was one of his faves and even more probable was that he modified that Super Lead for 6550's.

http://www.richdickinsonsdf.co.uk/hendrix_amp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-a ... -tone.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplorer]

yes, i know. i understand all these statements and infos i know but the troubling thing is that with a 45/100, i get the tone so easyly, unmistakably, even at bedroom levels, while the superlead can't really ( even if it can make the joke if you play right, it makes you forget it isn't the exact tone, like randy hansen or carlygtr or some others did ) , and should be processed through some mic position, and various other filters to perhaps really get there.

that's ... strange. my opinion is that if it sounds just like it, the 45/100, without efforts, there's no much need to look for another amp, and a coherent logic regarding the era, the amp supposed to be used then, the readyly available gears, etc ... which then COULD ... PERHAPS, AND with various filters and mics and acoustic and speakers etc , could get close to the sound of the amp which as described previously, does it directly, without efforts at all.
one is more potential than the other i think.

that being said, i Wonder if i already know the isolated guitar part of machine gun. this night. ( or please ! i'd love to hear this ! please, please ! )
i don't think it exists for us. i know about some console records, quite harsh, and i played with it a bit, but it isn't about the right moment. or ... or it's on "gotta live together."

( i had fun by the way by mixing this console record of gotta live together with the albuml version, and it was funny to get some real tape flanging out of it !!! sounded delicious by accident )

the rich Dickinson amp is serial 7026. i heard about the real supposedly favourite of jimi , which was the serial 7027 ( can be seen at amparchives by the way ) .

well, as long as it gets there with a 45/100, more than a superlead with mods and filters and tape and mics and acousitc etc .... it's very fine for me ! but it's allways interesting to put this theory in danger and dig in some other directions.
i like to talk about it with you guys, thanks

[Xplorer]

here it is ! i've just put it on youtube, to show you guys what i'm talking about.
an amazing cool little accident while mixing two tape sources of the bog concert : it produced some through zero flanging ! ^^
Right from 1970 !! one tape wasn't as constant as the other probably. or both.

listen, it's about the middle of the clip.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oX3BVk3 ... e=youtu.be[/youtube]

[Lefty Lou]

Speaking again of the JTM45/100, you have the shared cathode (versus split cathode) which is supposedly more pedal friendly which I'm sure Jimi latched on to right away. It would also be interesting to note the differences in amp input impedances between the JTM45/100 and the early Super Lead amps. I don't know if you caught it, but it was mentioned that the Dickinson amp had KT66s in the amp when it first came in to Carlsboro Music prior to being sold to Rich Dickinson.

[Lefty Lou]

here it is ! i've just put it on youtube, to show you guys what i'm talking about.
an amazing cool little accident while mixing two tape sources of the bog concert : it produced some through zero flanging ! ^^
Right from 1970 !! one tape wasn't as constant as the other probably. or both.

listen, it's about the middle of the clip.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oX3BVk3 ... e=youtu.be[/youtube]

Try as I might, I couldn't hear the (Through-Zero-Flanging) maybe my ears are not as "attuned" to it, but what I hear minus the flange is a JTM45/100 with a germanium fuzz, how about yourself?
I remember really wanting a FoxRox Paradox TZF (Through-Zero-Flanging) pedal when they were first released. Being that I couldn't use the TZF all the time without sounding redundant it went on the "redundant pedal" list just like the Danelectro Back Talk pedal, and EBow. Fortunately I still have my FoxRox Captain Coconut original however.

http://www.foxroxelectronics.com/ParadoxTZF.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.foxroxelectronics.com/CC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplorer]

Speaking again of the JTM45/100, you have the shared cathode (versus split cathode) which is supposedly more pedal friendly which I'm sure Jimi latched on to right away. It would also be interesting to note the differences in amp input impedances between the JTM45/100 and the early Super Lead amps. I don't know if you caught it, but it was mentioned that the Dickinson amp had KT66s in the amp when it first came in to Carlsboro Music prior to being sold to Rich Dickinson.

yes, the Dickinson was a 45/100, so with kt66 it's not surprising but i didn't know it later used some other tubes ( ? )
the shared cathode on the superlead helps, ( i don't use the split cathode anymore ) but it doesn't get there totaly.
it seems that the mods attempts on a superlead to "get there", bog tone, are like transforming a superlead into a 45/100 ^^
about the input impedance , aren't they both 1M, followed by some 68k ?

too bad that you couldn't hear the tape flanging, maybe not through zero but very close. and if you hear it loud ? more obvious at 00:23
so you too hear a 45/100 ? yes, i also hear a 45/100 on "gotta live together", as for machine gun, who knows, changes, power to love, etc, same concert i think, same tone i'm talking about, same amp.
a germanium fuzz, i'm not sure. but it's the octavia for sure.