Which to Build for JMH - The Dilemma

[Xplorer]

Yes, the same rig could have been used for all shows, but i'm not sure about that.
The fuzz is on max, with my setup. This way, you get the clean frequencys back ( before 9, it's muddy ), but still, clean tones can be achieved anyway, with the fuzz at max.

The honnest answer is yes !!! And it's fantastic : yes, i can get all the shades of the show's tones, and it can't be just a coincidence i think, while the sl ( but i should try with 6550, even if billy batz's sounds convinced me not 100 % ) can't .

My clips and rig , ... I'd like to show how it sounds, when played at live level : less and less doubt about the bog tone there.
But here i played at bedroom level, already giving a good focus on the amp's color when used differently compared to 66, 67 ..

I'd recommend the dunlop rather than the analog man, even if both are bc108, so you could really judge. And a 75hz pre rola g12h30. You could see by yourself.

I can get this tone also with some gold lace sensors and other kind of pickups ! Lol.Basicaly, with all my strats !! Even with some john suhr v60 lp high output pickups. Just slight variations. middle pickup was used quite often too , and i get the middle pickup tones too.
Without plenty of adjustments and special gears, or mods.
This bog effect occurs with the volume set low, and compensated with a high signal, coming into a 45/100.
But not any fuzz here ... The dunlop works close to it. I'd like to try with RM axis fuzz with this setup, so it would be "discovered", doing what she's supposed to do. ( if someone has one ? Lol )

So the 45/100 way is more evident to me than a super complex hazardous combination of gears, cables, strat pickups, effects, acoustic, post prod, etc etc etc as mentioned previously , all that to satisfy the appearances of the logic following the infos we have on this era : much less likely to me.

One other thing that DOESN'T exist with a superlead ( IMO, for my ears ), is the kind of harshness that occur with a JTM, with single coils. ( even with the volume at 4 ), and which was magnified by angus : there's this kind of signature harshness in bog, to my ears.( not the angus way iff course ) Super often heard into some hendrix accents, hard to describe.
This kind of "harshness" also makes a univibe to sound different, and it combines nicely with such fuzz and single coils

[Lefty Lou]

"I'm getting a little verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves" - Coffee Talk (Saturday Night Live - Mike Myers)

[Xplorer]

sorry, lol, i can't translate it.

well, done ! just ordered a 45/100 power transformer from brian - marstran, and a 4 henrys choke.

second 45/100 soon to be build

[Lefty Lou]

sorry, lol, i can't translate it.

well, done ! just ordered a 45/100 power transformer from brian - marstran, and a 4 henrys choke.

second 45/100 soon to be build

Some people have money to burn, wish I did at this moment.

[Xplorer]

if you knew ..... waited 2 years to complete the part list ! ^^
i wish i had money too but Christmas helped doing something crazy

[Xplorer]

.... Something quite interesting, from Jimi. i let you guys discover what it is if you didn't hear it yet

http://we.tl/LCQbQJmyXD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplorer]

..... Tell me, do you notice somethings on this sweet music ? ^^
between both. i only selected this same part of the song on each version.
i'm glad this subject was resurected, it made me discover some stuff i had never heard before ,i think, like this :

http://we.tl/JmLrdY2x7W" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Now what about the dilemma ? still a dilemma ? lol

Edit : i think i've got something ! maybe a possible tone comparison possible with another concert ... the royal albert hall !
i mean, these clips in the file above, from the first show. To me they sound a lot like this one, a red house cut, from the royal albert hall :

http://we.tl/YSmUaNsnIs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so, this would be a superlead then.

BUT, as you hear, even with the same post prod as for machine gun, who knows ..... it sounds nothing like machine gun, who knows ..... shades of tone. fuzz or not.

so :

superlead ok,
jtm 45/100 ok.
why not after all ...
it just depends of the show.
to make sure to myself,i heard again the other songs of the first show, it's really nothing like the second night, regarding the tone, even with the same post prod

[emmjaydubya]

well, done ! just ordered a 45/100 power transformer from brian - marstran, and a 4 henrys choke.

second 45/100 soon to be build

Nice! Are you doing a variation on the 2nd one like the Dickenson spec or the same as yours? I hope to start on one in the next few months, nothing like a 45/100.

[shakti]

If nothing else, it's fun to see a thread on something other than EVH for a change. This place needed some action! Perhaps I'll get a thread started when I start my '69 SL build very soon (package sent from Valvestorm yesterday).

I did some more experimenting last night, again with my 12-series clone, two different cabs (1935B and 1982B), Castledine Supra-Vibe, Dunlop Octavio and NKT275 Sunface. TBH, I came to the opposite conclusion: to my ears, the BOG setup is a fairly gainy amp set high, but with the fuzz set relatively low! I think Roe suggested the BOG spund was an Axis fuzz used as a clean boost, and that might very well be true. I've never tried an Axis fuzz, and perhaps "clean boost" isn't the right word, but you get the picture. A germanium fuzzface is definitely not the right fuzz for BOG, you need something brighter, tighter and gainier...but I don't think the fuzz is set all the way up or even close to all the way up. He gets so many shades of clean and semi-clean tones, some brighter than others with apparently the same gain level and pickup, so I feel certain that he's playing straight into the amp for many parts (no fuzz on). Also, when he uses the Octavio, a 45/100 set on 4 wouldn't sound right to my ears....not enough gain. And with an Octavio into a silicon fuzz with the fuzz set all the way up...it would just be a mess, yet on BOG it's always controlled.
The preamp of the Univibe plays a part too - it adds a certain bite/brittleness and helps beef up the sound when the guitar runs straight into the amp. It also helps with clean-up, so he gets a nice cutting tone even with no fuzz on.

As for the difference between Dec 31 and Jan 1...I don't think there's a world of difference, although there is some. In general, I think Jan 1 sounds much better overall. Sometimes the balance is a little off on Dec 31. I think the difference is subtle enough that it could be different miking (close vs distant, bleeding in from the drum mikes, etc). If I were to say anything about amps and fuzzes between the two nights, I'd say that Dec 31 sounds *slightly* more EL34ish, and Jan 31 *slightly* more 6550ish (or KT66ish...or 6L6ish), but the difference isn't entirely consistent. Jan 31 sounds slightly more "pure", but it could also be as simple as the fuzz level being set ever so slightly lower on Jan 1...so Dec 31 would sound slightly more "splattery" like he often did later on in 1970.

Lots of speculation here, but until further notice, my money is on:

Amp: split cathode Super Leads, possibly with 6550s, set quite high (although a shared cathode type amp is certainly a possibility...still doubt the 45/100 though)
Fuzz: silicon fuzzface or Axis fuzz, output level fairly high but fuzz level relatively low, enough to make it sound fuzzy, but not enough to completely overload the amp and make it sound splattery
Univibe: preamp circuit adds a subtle bite and brittleness
Guitar: as we all know...very low output PUs

Feel free to disagree all you want. I reserve the right to change my opinion frequently and wildly.

Fortunately I will soon have the ability to make simple recordings and videos...nothing fancy, but better than built-in iPhone mic...

[neikeel]

If nothing else, it's fun to see a thread on something other than EVH for a change. This place needed some action! Perhaps I'll get a thread started when I start my '69 SL build very soon (package sent from Valvestorm yesterday).


Fortunately I will soon have the ability to make simple recordings and videos...nothing fancy, but better than built-in iPhone mic...

Me too, a nice new SM57 arrived in my Christmas pressies so I am browsing for the best (value for money) interface to feed into my Mac (starting with garageband) M-audio looks ideal............oops thread hack

[Xplorer]

Nice! Are you doing a variation on the 2nd one like the Dickenson spec or the same as yours? I hope to start on one in the next few months, nothing like a 45/100.

yes, maybe not Dickinson but i'll try some variations for sure. i waited to start a second one, to try some mods and variation.
this should be fun

[Xplorer]

If nothing else, it's fun to see a thread on something other than EVH for a change. This place needed some action! Perhaps I'll get a thread started when I start my '69 SL build very soon (package sent from Valvestorm yesterday).

I did some more experimenting last night, again with my 12-series clone, two different cabs (1935B and 1982B), Castledine Supra-Vibe, Dunlop Octavio and NKT275 Sunface. TBH, I came to the opposite conclusion: to my ears, the BOG setup is a fairly gainy amp set high, but with the fuzz set relatively low! I think Roe suggested the BOG spund was an Axis fuzz used as a clean boost, and that might very well be true. I've never tried an Axis fuzz, and perhaps "clean boost" isn't the right word, but you get the picture. A germanium fuzzface is definitely not the right fuzz for BOG, you need something brighter, tighter and gainier...but I don't think the fuzz is set all the way up or even close to all the way up. He gets so many shades of clean and semi-clean tones, some brighter than others with apparently the same gain level and pickup, so I feel certain that he's playing straight into the amp for many parts (no fuzz on). Also, when he uses the Octavio, a 45/100 set on 4 wouldn't sound right to my ears....not enough gain. And with an Octavio into a silicon fuzz with the fuzz set all the way up...it would just be a mess, yet on BOG it's always controlled.
The preamp of the Univibe plays a part too - it adds a certain bite/brittleness and helps beef up the sound when the guitar runs straight into the amp. It also helps with clean-up, so he gets a nice cutting tone even with no fuzz on.

As for the difference between Dec 31 and Jan 1...I don't think there's a world of difference, although there is some. In general, I think Jan 1 sounds much better overall. Sometimes the balance is a little off on Dec 31. I think the difference is subtle enough that it could be different miking (close vs distant, bleeding in from the drum mikes, etc). If I were to say anything about amps and fuzzes between the two nights, I'd say that Dec 31 sounds *slightly* more EL34ish, and Jan 31 *slightly* more 6550ish (or KT66ish...or 6L6ish), but the difference isn't entirely consistent. Jan 31 sounds slightly more "pure", but it could also be as simple as the fuzz level being set ever so slightly lower on Jan 1...so Dec 31 would sound slightly more "splattery" like he often did later on in 1970.

Lots of speculation here, but until further notice, my money is on:

Amp: split cathode Super Leads, possibly with 6550s, set quite high (although a shared cathode type amp is certainly a possibility...still doubt the 45/100 though)
Fuzz: silicon fuzzface or Axis fuzz, output level fairly high but fuzz level relatively low, enough to make it sound fuzzy, but not enough to completely overload the amp and make it sound splattery
Univibe: preamp circuit adds a subtle bite and brittleness
Guitar: as we all know...very low output PUs

Feel free to disagree all you want. I reserve the right to change my opinion frequently and wildly.

Fortunately I will soon have the ability to make simple recordings and videos...nothing fancy, but better than built-in iPhone mic...

he he, fun fun there, and cool ! clips to come, i'll be glad to hear

Well, other than that, did you guys check the wetransfer links i provided ?
there's quite some stuff i think, Inside. what do you think ?

[neikeel]

he he, fun fun there, and cool ! clips to come, i'll be glad to hear

Well, other than that, did you guys check the wetransfer links i provided ?
there's quite some stuff i think, Inside. what do you think ?

I liked the clips a lot - left them running in the background whilst browsing elsewhere - usually get the idea and move on so that is good!

[Xplorer]

yes they're really total coolness, but did you notice a few things in the "burning desire" clips, one vs the other ?

and did you compare the tone to the red house at the royal albert hall ?
and did you compare the tone also to the second night - who knows, machine gun etc ?

and did you also heard the NY Studio jam in nov 69 ?

[Xplorer]

but I don't think the fuzz is set all the way up or even close to all the way up. He gets so many shades of clean and semi-clean tones, some brighter than others with apparently the same gain level and pickup, so I feel certain that he's playing straight into the amp for many parts (no fuzz on). Also, when he uses the Octavio, a 45/100 set on 4 wouldn't sound right to my ears....not enough gain. And with an Octavio into a silicon fuzz with the fuzz set all the way up...it would just be a mess, yet on BOG it's always controlled.
The preamp of the Univibe plays a part too - it adds a certain bite/brittleness and helps beef up the sound when the guitar runs straight into the amp. It also helps with clean-up, so he gets a nice cutting tone even with no fuzz on.

yes, well at least we found two ways to get there
yes, fuzz all the way up, the the strat volume at about 7-8 for clean tones, just the same. it works.
my univibe volume is on 10. and for non univibe parts, i just set the Voodoo vibe's bias control to zero, very close to the non true bypass original univibe, but the preamp's volume is still working.

Guitar: as we all know...very low output PUs

yes, this was the case, but i can get in these tone shades with low output pickups to high output pickups, just slight variations. not so essential.

As for the difference between Dec 31 and Jan 1...I don't think there's a world of difference, although there is some. In general, I think Jan 1 sounds much better overall. Sometimes the balance is a little off on Dec 31. I think the difference is subtle enough that it could be different miking (close vs distant, bleeding in from the drum mikes, etc). If I were to say anything about amps and fuzzes between the two nights, I'd say that Dec 31 sounds *slightly* more EL34ish, and Jan 31 *slightly* more 6550ish (or KT66ish...or 6L6ish), but the difference isn't entirely consistent. Jan 31 sounds slightly more "pure", but it could also be as simple as the fuzz level being set ever so slightly lower on Jan 1...so Dec 31 would sound slightly more "splattery" like he often did later on in 1970.

the first shows : clearly a superlead to me. please listen to these we transfer stuffs i sent, and compare them to the other wetransfer "red house" : slight variations, but you can hear the amp's tonal response clearly on this one. not a 45/100
i endly hear a possible comparison between two concerts, thanks to this "burning desire" part.


the second night : a big world of difference to me, and i think it's about micing. it's what you already know i said previously, in my opinion.