ATBL delay question

[Megaro]

The consensus seems to be that Ed used a 100ms slap with a second 300ms echo on top. It is a unique echo technique, but I do not hear it in the rest of the Classic Van Halen catalog. Does it appear anywhere else ? I guess everything else is mostly a 100ms slapback ?

The only other time I can really think of that tight, rhythmic delay is on Me Wise Magic, but that sounds like Ed might have used a tap temp to get that one going.

[dirtycooter]

Search Pete Thorns posts here-he has a clip with 100+300 in series. Thats diferent than 100+300 parallel-review strymons audio samples of the dual digital delay line in the Timeline on their site. They give parallel and series examples and there is a different effect from each type though same times. Digital delays are the building blocks of digital reverbs-reverbs use tons of them in series parallel both. Thats why some 6tap delays can quickly become very reverb esqu when set just right
Satch is a serial multi delay guy big time as well.
Later VH is parallel 250+500 or now lately its moved to 300+600-which I like alot but.... I use it with cross feedback which is only unique to a few processors like the gforce, pcm80/81, H8000, Korg DL8000, Mpx1+g2(what I use). Also I like one side phase reversed 180dgrs like a true echo.
These newer delays are panned stereo to opposite sides for Ed with no crossfeedback. Just a mono delay box on a left side and mono delay box on a right side feed. With or without crossfeedback is not drastically different but I like it better than 2 mono non crossfeedbacked delays.
I have fucked with delay ALOT. I always like to try an create ambience ala Satriani with it. I like a pair of cascading delay lines and panning then opposite is not always best either. Lots and lots of creative ways to use it. Slap doubling happens decently for me between 80-200ms. Anything longer has to be rythmically set pretty much.
It holds up way better than verb in a live context and busy room/mix. Remember-Ed never used reverb live-only delay. Verb was added to the recordings and as he has been quoted-much to his chagrin.

[dirtycooter]

There are thin and fat delays-my mpx is kinda thinner sounding than say whats in the eventide stompboxes. I like the fatter ones for shorter times and the thinner airier ones for longer delay lines.
Voice quality-e.q.-level-phase-all are just as important as the times and these parameters can make or break a good tone/effect sometimes.

[Blix]

Also key to the ATBL 100ms slap is that it have to be before the amp/drive.

[Megaro]

Thanks for the responses. I am using an Eventide Timefactor and I could not get it set right (it was in parallel as opposed to serial delays). I read a post elsewhere on the net that cleared it up for me. I run the Timefactor before the amp, guitar goes into the mono input, a jumper cable goes from the right input to the left / mono output and then the right mono output goes to the amp. Sounds just like the album. However, outside of the part of ATBL, I just do not hear the 100ms feeding a 300ms echo in the rest of the catalog. Maybe it was a one off deal, and has been noted on this form, Eddie even stopped using this echo technique when playing ATBL in concert on the first tour. Interesting stuff.

[JiMB]

The 300ms delay was done at the board in the studio?

[dirtycooter]

Not true about having to have the echo "in front". That is completely false.
The serial cascading delay can be done all "post amp". But.... most do not have the elaborate rig to make this happen. Its an engineering detour, but it can be done.
Actually to make it simple all you need is any dual delay with crossfeedback between the two delay lines and a line mixer as simple as the rjm mini mixer.
Dual delays such as the timefactor cannot do this on their own. All because a lack of the "cross feedback" ability.
Timeline from Strymon can do it though. Better control can be had with MPX1, g-force, DL8000, PCM multi tap delays, etc. Otherwise you need a mixer, that has an aux and seperately adjustable sends-one for the dry and one for first delay, and a pair of mono delays so one is in the aux and one is running parallel to the dry on the mixer channel inputs. Dry and first delay require seperate aux send levels.
Also note not every delay out there sounds good or correct for a slap at 100ms. Full thick delays with some top and bottom crafting of frequency rolloff is a good place to start. And the serial cascade trick only works panned to the same place mono.

[garbeaj]

So can you explain what "cross-Feedback" means?

I have been unable to achieve the ATBL delay sound correctly using my single delay unit which is a vintage Electro-Harmonix Deluxe Memory Man. I now have an Eventide H9 Core...maybe I can dial this in with both of these units? Would I try one for approx. 100ms and the other at approx. 300ms? Is this only on during the intro? Am I hearing just reverb in the rest of the song?

Are there any clips that you know of where someone has achieved a reasonable apporoximation of the effect from the record?

I know that the "soundcheck" version of ATBL from the early days sounds very close to the record, at least to my ears it sounds like the record minus the reverb...did Ed do this with the two Echoplexes? As far as I know, these two Echoplexes were never connected together...one was just a back up if the #1 chain went down. And the UNivox was strictly for the one note at the end of "Eruption"...

[dirtycooter]

OK
Lets break it way down.

Guitar to delay. Think of boss dd3's on the floor here in series one running into the other and then the amp-just like the echoplexes Ed used.

The mix knob on delay #1 is only half as loud as the the actual main sound.
So thinkin of it in numbers and stuff it would be 50/50 in a serial chain of pedals.
The delay would be exactly as loud as the main sound 1:1 mix ratio. Follow? {this shit is different for WDW percentage wise as its 2 wet cabs vs 1 dry-keep this in mind as its very tricky shit for the correct mix}

BUT we are gonna set delay slap #1 100ms to half as loud as the main tone. So its more like like....... 25% delay and then 75% main vein tone. As 50/50 would mean the delay is equally as loud.

NOW this shit hits delay #2. Delay #2 is set at 50/50 or 1:1 or as loud as the dry tone. Its floatin out there at 300-400 ms repating all of the first delay and dry tone.

You will have a slight room ambience slap feel [I highly recommend 0%feedback at 100ms for all intents and purposes] and try to make the delay sorta sound like a woody room-go with that vision.

Delay #2 is gonna make this "amp in a room sound" REPEAT itself again and again and mybe a 3rd time barely.

Look inside your head-pretend your imaginary friend is there, and pretend your in a relatively tight small living room, and then your gonna echo that whole picture.

Its all pretend stab in the dark put a bag over her face and snatch patch on her if shes bleedin type of ambience trickery
main thing is focus on getting the grasp of the 100ms room sound first-feel, bang it, get into it, and catch the vibe.

its different than reverb-there is no tail. But think of the quick slappy reflections you get inside a room.


If you ever painted a room in your house, and moved all the furniture out of a carpetless, hard dry wall room, you will get the slap box sound. Recognize that first. Make the room bigger by extending time further out or making it brighter or darker or boomier with lo and hi cuts. Its all pseudo delay tricks 101

Now just echo that again at 300ms. maybe fiddle fart around with the mix of each. Maybe you want more immediate room sound and less 2nd echo or vise versa. Either way your on your way to space dimension ville.
Reverbs are just simply in fact and in all intents and purposes-"multiple delays or reflections of sound piling up and bouncing around". That's all reverb is, Its just much more tight and concise here and ..... better IMHO especially for live playing as it translates very clearly compared to a splashy verb inside a splashy venue=ASS SOUND


So... 2 delays lines in series will have cross feedback-echoing an echo.

In my machines if delay line 1 is 25% as loud as the dry I wanna basically make 25% crossfeedback to delay line 2 and make it what ever time I want out there 300-400-500+ms and part of delay line one iscascading into delay line 2.

I cannot explain it any further as each machine reacts different depending on the algorithm and its implementation in the machine used.
Have fun and experiment

[dirtycooter]

Also for those out there not wanting to purchase 2 sde 3000's check out the new strymon DIG. It alledgedly does 2 sde's in a pedal $299 vs about $600 easy for a pair of sde's

[Strat78]

Two echoplexes and two plexi heads. Run one in front of the first head, then daisy chain to another head with another echoplex in between. I think that is how Ted was doing it for ATBL, RWTD and DTNA at sunset sound. Nothing beats the warmth and breath of a real Echoplex, but you've got to be willing to put in the time to maintain them. Ah, but that is why we are here at metro and not at HC or TGP, though you wouldn't know it these days.

[efraser68]

Two echoplexes and two plexi heads. Run one in front of the first head, then daisy chain to another head with another echoplex in between. I think that is how Ted was doing it for ATBL, RWTD and DTNA at sunset sound. Nothing beats the warmth and breath of a real Echoplex, but you've got to be willing to put in the time to maintain them. Ah, but that is why we are here at metro and not at HC or TGP, though you wouldn't know it these days.

Would plexi #2 be set to dimed-type gain or more like normal channel with vol @ 3-4

[dirtycooter]

You know I read an article about how there is a way to slave a echoplex for less noise in the daisy chain type of dealy set up. It was Steve Morse yackin about it.

[dirtycooter]

Also another HUGE tip on slap delay tricks for slap fattening stuff??
TOTALLY see the "Strymon DECO pedal demo"-that's very possible this is on the studio cut THEN sent to the verb chamber/plate [whichever your fond of] and this pedals vid highlights what short delay can do under 200ms.

[Strat78]

Two echoplexes and two plexi heads. Run one in front of the first head, then daisy chain to another head with another echoplex in between. I think that is how Ted was doing it for ATBL, RWTD and DTNA at sunset sound. Nothing beats the warmth and breath of a real Echoplex, but you've got to be willing to put in the time to maintain them. Ah, but that is why we are here at metro and not at HC or TGP, though you wouldn't know it these days.

Would plexi #2 be set to dimed-type gain or more like normal channel with vol @ 3-4

You can dime it or dial it back a bit for a little more attack to complement the other dimed head (each head has it's own 4x12). It's just an old school way to get a stereo effect going without loosing that thumpy woody attack. You can use a splitter as well to run both amps in parallel if you want the echoes to be truly independent of each other. I don't think every track was recorded like this, but I'm pretty positive RWTD was done this way, the echo seems to stand away from the main tone. At any rate it is a fun option if you have two heads and cabs lying around, oh and two echoplexes or something similar. I stopped experimenting with this because I'm too lazy to fix my two broken echoplexs.