VH1: b&w/maple or black/rosewood?

[Seabean]

Thanks, wjamflan, I admire how you've brought details here to a whole new level. Here's the pdf of Raw Power #4,
http://www.scott-stephens.com/pdf/Raw_Power_4_1977.pdf
scroll down to page 35, that's where I got the screen shot. It was probably taken by the same photographer maybe a second or two before of after, but it's not the EXACT same picture.

is the MM 8/1/77 ad within that picture of the flyers on the wall? (maybe I'm not looking hard enough)

Otherwise, we're going on the dating of those 2 pictures with the b&w strat (MM and Whisky) mainly according to Kat's memory? That's it? Edit: I thought someone said there was a flyer (prior to the Sunset sessions) with the b&w strat on it?

[wjamflan]

Have any of all these VH fan websites put together a really good 1977 club dates list with more dates than this list? This could be helpful in nailing things down.

I believe the dates originate from what used to be Van Halen's official website.

People just added to that list when poster/flyer evidence became available.

So is that pic really MM, or the Whisky?

It's possible that it could be the Whisky. I never saw Magic Mountain back in the day, so I can't say for sure.

[wjamflan]

Here's the pdf of Raw Power #4, http://www.scott-stephens.com/pdf/Raw_Power_4_1977.pdf
scroll down to page 35, that's where I got the screen shot. It was probably taken by the same photographer maybe a second or two before of after, but it's not the EXACT same picture.

You're right. Good catch. I have that .pdf from when it first became available. I just never noticed that the pic was different than what VHND posted.

Last but not least, what makes this feature greater still is the fact that it included two photos – one of Eddie and one of Dave – that were both taken during the band’s club days in 1977. Naturally, any pre-1978 photos are rare, and thus a real treat. Because of the limited print quality of the original magazine, which was newsprint, the two photos in the article are pretty blurry. But it just so happens that we at VHND happen to have the actual prints that were given to Raw Power magazine. So we have scanned the original prints ourselves for much better detail. Until this VHND article, these two photos have never been published anywhere but Raw Power magazine and in a 1977 flyer for a Van Halen club appearance. Photos by Murray Schwartz.

That must mean that VHND has multiple prints taken by Murray at that time. Those would surely be interesting to see.

In the end, although it is interesting, it doesn't change the fact that one of those prints were used on the 10/15/77 Pasadena Civic flyer.

[wjamflan]

It needs to be explained how the date for that photo came about: July 15,77.

Just in case anyone misses my edit on the page before, Greg confirmed that the striped-shirt pic that Kat took of Ed at the Whisky was taken on July 15, 1977. Kat wrote the date on the back of the picture.

The Magic Mountain picture (from Kat) that I posted before that she's labelled as August 15, 1977.

I don't know how much more definitive we are going to get....

[Seabean]

(copy and pasting my answer from the other thread)

No offense to Kat, but I'm not there yet. What puts doubt in my mind about the MM photo is the fact that Dave and Ed are wearing the exact same clothes as in the Whisky photos and standing in front of a curtain very similar to what the Whisky had at the time (see Ramones Oct 77 photo). IMHO that supposed MM photo is from the Whisky fall 77 gig.

I also have my doubts about the "backstage spatnetz" photo being from summer '77. The only other place you see that shirt is on the album shots (LP jr and inner sleeve "sweat" photo), and it's generally considered that those pics were taken (Elliot Gilbert?) around the time of the New years eve gig at the Whisky. No offense, guys.



In addition... I'm getting into unpopular territory here, so thankfully ToneSlinger said it first.... maybe she put those dates on the photos later and possibly forgot?

wjamflan, no offense intended, but you made a post way back in 2013 where you were convinced that franky was in it's final form for the recording... yet the Kat photos didn't appear until just this year. What piece of evidence convinced you back in 2013?

[wjamflan]

(copy and pasting my answer from the other thread)

No offense to Kat, but I'm not there yet. What puts doubt in my mind about the MM photo is the fact that Dave and Ed are wearing the exact same clothes as in the Whisky photos and standing in front of a curtain very similar to what the Whisky had at the time (see Ramones Oct 77 photo). IMHO that supposed MM photo is from the Whisky fall 77 gig.

I also have my doubts about the "backstage spatnetz" photo being from summer '77. The only other place you see that shirt is on the album shots (LP jr and inner sleeve "sweat" photo), and it's generally considered that those pics were taken (Elliot Gilbert?) around the time of the New years eve gig at the Whisky. No offense, guys.



In addition... I'm getting into unpopular territory here, so thankfully ToneSlinger said it first.... maybe she put those dates on the photos later and possibly forgot?

wjamflan, no offense intended, but you made a post way back in 2013 where you were convinced that franky was in it's final form for the recording... yet the Kat photos didn't appear until just this year. What piece of evidence convinced you back in 2013?

First, let me say that I appreciate your kind words and willingness to consider other viewpoints. Leadguy was not that way at all and tended to ignore any evidence contrary to what he posted over and over again.

Second, I find it hard to believe that Kat would put specific dates on the pictures that were wrong, especially the MM date which had never circulated in any VH forum I've ever seen. Why write on them at all unless she developed the photos at the time and knew exactly when they were from? That doesn't make any sense to me. I know that when she was asked about the striped shirt, Whisky photo, she originally thought it was from 1975. She found the date on the back when she was called on that by a knowledgeable fan.

Finally, the piece of evidence that I had in my possession long before 2013 was the 10/15/77 Pasadena Civic Flyer. In fact, the post you linked to starts by me saying that we'd discussed the issue before. We had. And it was always about whether or not Ed told the truth about what he used. Leadguy wanted people to believe that what you saw in the Jenny Lens photos was what you heard on VH I. He ignored any evidence that did not go along with what he thought, like the flyer, for instance. He also wanted people to believe that an overlay of the sunburst strat proved that it was Franky as well. It didn't matter what people like Strat78, etc. said. He was the consummate fisherman in his own pond.

But to answer your question.... The Raw Power interview was in the October/November 1977 issue. The interview and pictures both would have had to have been ready in time for publication. I can't speak for RP, but most magazines I've ordered come at least a month ahead of time. For the sake of argument, let's say the teens had all they could do to get the Oct/Nov issue out by the first of October. They still would have needed at least a week (I'm being overly cautious) to pull together the interviews, pictures, layout, advertising etc. that go into publishing a magazine - like a college newspaper, for instance. That leaves us with a latest possible date for both around the third week of September, just as the band were finishing VH I. The last Whisky date, on or before then, was 9/17/77, as you pointed out on page 1. So even if the interview and the pictures by Murray were done on that date - I personally think it was a July or August date - they were done while VH I was being recorded at the latest. That means Franky was b & w stripes with a maple neck for VH I.

At some point, those who don't want it to be true have to look at the big picture. That includes why it would possibly be ok to accept Jenny Lens' word that her pictures were taken at the 5/29/77 show, because she took them and said so, but not accept Kat Hanes word about the 7/15 and 8/15/77 pictures she took and labelled. But as always, you are free to believe as you'd like.

[wjamflan]

The only other place you see that shirt is on the album shots (LP jr and inner sleeve "sweat" photo), and it's generally considered that those pics were taken (Elliot Gilbert?) around the time of the New years eve gig at the Whisky.

FWIW, here is what Ed wore for NYE at The Whisky (12/31/77) - different stripes:

[wjamflan]

What puts doubt in my mind about the MM photo is the fact that Dave and Ed are wearing the exact same clothes as in the Whisky photos and standing in front of a curtain very similar to what the Whisky had at the time.

The curtain I'm not sure about, but I wouldn't let the clothes be the thing that throws you. Here's Ed seven moths later (7/23/78 - Day On The Green) wearing what looks like the exact outfit he wore on NYE '77:



Clearly the man liked certain things and wore them whenever he felt like it (or was told by DLR - ha ha).

Just for kicks, here's the striped shirt causing concern being worn again (4/4/78). Doesn't look like he wore it out quickly...

[Seabean]

Thanks wjamflan/Bill ... I guess it comes down to figuring out where & when the Raw Power pic was taken, but until we get a separate corroboration of another picture, it has come down to Kat's dates on the back of her pictures which is determining whether the strat in the studio looked the same as the strat on the cover. Nothing against Kat, she seems like the kind of girl I would have been hanging around back in the day (hard to believe there was actually a time when there were girls who were into guitar rock like Kiss, Foghat, or LedZep.. I knew quite a few) ...on the other hand, Jenny might be more like a certain punk-rock girl I knew in college who I got into (friendly) hard-rock vs new-wave debates

I'll just say I'm on the fence now about this issue about the guitar color in the studio I'm looking forward to Greg's book, especially the 1977 timeline.

[Tazin]

I think the cover art pictures on VH 1 were taken somewhere between November and December. If you look at Alex's drum kit photo you'll notice it's setup the way you see it in the New Years Eve picture (and throughout the first tour), and not like the earlier way (Fall '77 and earlier) when he had the three tom-toms in a row.

[Seabean]

According to Greg, the pictures were taken by Elliot Gilbert at the Whisky.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/van-hale ... ate-cover/

(doesn't say when.. we've always assumed it to be when they were setup there to do the NYE gigs)

Weren't the bulk of the Gilbert photos (outakes) posted on DLR's site a while back. or where are those photos now?

[rgorke]

Just to add to the confusion, the date stamped on the pictures from the Whiskey are early 1979. So, Eric, who took the pictures actually didn't get them developed until over a year later.

What I am saying is that the pictures may not represent the right date, even though she wrote on them. They could have been on the same roll as another gig. Remember back then, we didn't take multiple shots of things because film was expensive and time consuming to develop. We all make tiny mistakes that seem to not be of any consequence. Just look how "eye witness accounts" are treated with very little weight in a court of law.

I saw concerts at MM in the early 80s. I remember one bigger stage kind of in the middle of the property that was an open air amphitheater. Then again, I was way more distracted by my date at the time.

[EJSLPlexi]

Seeing these old pics of ed with the original black/white homemade strat and the striped shirt
brought back some really great memories not only of how great a player he was
but looked the part!
as well as it was when i had first started guitar and i remember wanting to be exactly like him.
so i put a humbucker in my ibanez law suit strat(super distortion) painting it black and white and
I even bought that striped shirt

[redozzman]

As best I can find Magic Mountain had a dance club which might have been called "Decibels" at the time located in a section of the park called "Back Street" The name was later changed to "After Hours" but the point is that the park for a long time has had a big all-ages dance club.
http://timelines.home.insightbb.com/sfmm_years.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Flags_Magic_Mountain

But look at this pic again:



Could this just simply be from the same set of pictures from this fall '77 Whisky gig:



(There's more from this gig somewhere else on this forum) Notice that in both pics Ed and Dave are wearing the same clothes combo. Ed is wearing black pants and a light (grey/silver?) shirt. Dave is wearing black shirt and pants.

Regarding the curtain in the background, look at this pic of the Ramones at the Whisky in Oct 1977



(According to this webpage: http://pleasekillme.com/if-these-walls- ... y-a-go-go/ )

So is that pic really MM, or the Whisky?

Like I said, I'm just tryng to understand the piece of evidence that ties the b&w/maple prior to the Sunset sessions.

I could be wrong but I think these are two different locations. Look at Eds Cabinets, You can't see the speaker cones of those jensen speakers in Eds cabinet in one photo and they jump out in the other, Could be the angle and lighting but it looks like a different cabinet?