STILL REDPLATING!! I NEED SERIOUS HELP

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Zoso
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STILL REDPLATING!! I NEED SERIOUS HELP

Post by Zoso » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:47 am

Well, here is the rundown so far. I had a new set of EH EL34's in my 50 watter. (NON-MV) I noticed some redplating on V4, as I stated in my other thread. After reading Aaron's thread about a similar problem, I decided to try a new set of JJ's (just to try a different brand of tube) and if that didn't fix it then try putting a 68k resistor on the phase inverter tube to try to fix the imbalance. Well, the JJ's redplated as well, so I tried the 68k resistor. No luck. Same as before. So now I have no clue what to do. :cry:

A few things to note:
The EH's seemed to draw about 10 more volts of plate voltage than the JJ's. Also, I was barely able to get the JJ's biased in spec. I had to turn my bias pot all the way down to get them in, and then it was just barely. I checked my voltage on pin 5, and I am able to go from -44v up to about
-31v. This remained consistent with both tube brands, but using the cathode resistor method of biasing, I was getting about 20ma with the pot all the way down with the EH's, but about 36ma with the JJ's. Just barely enough to get it biased.
Also, I noticed that the redplating didn't seem to occur with the JJ's until they had been played for about an hour after they were first installed. After that first hour break-in though, they redplated almost immediately after you started playing, even if you left the amp off for several hours. I am assuming the EH's were the same way, although I didn't notice them until after they had been installed for a few days(more explained on this later).Also, all the voltages, including plate, seemed to drift up after you play and then let the amp sit for a while. What I mean is, you can fire it up, check the voltages, bias it, and play it a bit. Then turn it off, come back a couple hours later, fire it up, and check the voltages again, and they are all higher. I expect a little drift when breaking in new tubes, but the EH's are fairly broken in by now, and they still do it.
One last thing of note is that I did put in a new PT that puts out about 95 more plate volts than my old one. The new one is about 475v and the old one was about 380. The 475 was the reading I got when I first installed the PT. Now the EH tubes are reading about 495 plate volatge. Like I said, that's about 10 higher than the JJ's, whcih started at about 472 and drifted up to about 480 after an hour or so. But actually, I was noticing similar drifting behavior even with the stock PT. I put the EH's in about a week before I got the new PT. The first read was about 380, but after a couple days, they were reading about 390. Then like I said, they did a similar thing with the new PT, although you'd think they'd be broken in by now. Or maybe there is something else in the amp that is causing this and the redplating?
Anyway, I never noticed redplating with the old PT, but I'll be honest. I just got the amp in June and this is my first experience with amp biasing, so I may just not have looked hard enough. Also, the EH's were the first new tubes I had put on since I got it, and like I said I just put them on about a week before I got the new PT. They may have been doing it with the old PT, and I just didn't see it. I'm just trying to throw out everything here so I can get to the bottom of this and enjoy my amp again. I didn't change any board components when I put the new PT in, maybe I was supposed to?
Sorry for the long post, I just want to get all the details out so folks with more experience can maybe tell me what to do. Thanks for your help.
Last edited by Zoso on Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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flemingmras
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Post by flemingmras » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:27 am

Don't use the 1 ohm resistor method on this one. Use the transformer shunt method. It's a little more dangerous, but more accurate on the bias current readings. Just be careful and don't allow the leads to touch anything other than the HT fuse and pin 3 on either power tube.

With the standby switch set to "ON", using your digital multimeter, set it to DC Amps, connect the red lead to one side of the HT fuse, and the black lead to pin 3 of one of the power tubes. Note the reading you get on the meter. This reading shows you EXACTLY how much current that tube is drawing. Then switch the black lead to pin 3 of the other tube. This will show you EXACTLY how much current that tube is drawing also.

Now, because different tubes bias differently, this is why you get differing plate voltages. You must know that your plate voltage and plate current are 180 out of phase with each other. This means that when plate current goes up, this causes a plate voltage drop on the plates.

With a 485 volt plate voltage, each tube should be drawing roughly 35mA bias current.

Just so you know, changing the plate resistor on the driver from a 82K to a 68K is not going to help your idle bias current draw. This is because there is a .022uF coupling cap isolating the driver tube plate voltage from the grids of your output tubes. The output tube grids never even see that plate voltage on the driver so go ahead and change that back to stock.

Also, your bias supply should be able to go down all the way to -50VDC. What is the value of the resistor that is in series with the bias pot? It should be a 47K, but if it's already a 47K and it's only allowing you to go as low as -44, change it to a 56K.

Also, what are your screen voltages out of curiosity?

Email me at flemingmras1@comcast.net if you need anymore help.

Jon
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Post by Zoso » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:38 am

Hey Jon,
Thanks for the tips! Well, first off, I just changed the 82k to a 68k because I am only redplating on V4, V5 is fine. Someone had suggested this could be due to the imbalance of the phase inv. and that changing this res. could help it. Obviously, that wasn't my problem as it didn't help, so I did change it back. I don't know if the problem is about my current draw, or if it is something else. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this.

I seriously appreciate the biasing tip, and I think that will be my method from now on. :D Here is what I did. After I read your post, I got the amp out, it was still setup the same as I had it the last time I was checking the tubes. It had the EH tubes in it as I had put them back in to check if the resistor change would work. I had biased it up using the cathode rstr. method, and like I said, I left the sttings as they were. Here are the readings I got using the shunt method.

Plate Voltage-497
V4 Current-30.5mA
V5 Current-31.5mA
Screen-488v

These are the conditions under which the redpalting on V4 was occuring, and even though the plate voltage is higher, the current draw is still well under the limit and shouldn't be redplating.

I left everything the same and put in the JJ El34s. Here are the readings I got from them.

Plate Voltage-482
V4 Current-45mA
V5 Current-43.8mA
Screen -473v

I realize these currents are too high, but I just left it the same to show the difference in readings between the JJ's and EH's. When I was actually trying to play with the JJ's earlier, I did bias them, although as I said I had to turn my bias pot all the way down. HOWEVER, after I took the above readings with the JJ's. I turned the pot all the way down just to see and was only able to get it down to about 38mA, which is still too high for 482 plate voltage. So I probably never had the JJ's properly biased and perhaps that is why they redplated, although again it was just V4. Although, even the 38mA isn't pushing it past the maximum wattage. With 482 plate volatge, that comes out to 18.1 watts. A little too high, but I don't know if it is enough to red it or not. And that still doesn't explain why, even well within bias, the EH's were red. Unless my first thought was correct and the EH's were just bad to begin with.

I also don't understand why the plate voltage is so high on the EH's. Like I said, I put them in about a week before I got the new PT. I biased them up and everything seemed OK, although as I said I didn't really look that hard. I played them for about an hour a day for 3-4 days. However, when I did check the bias again at that time, I noticed the plate voltage had drifted up then as well. They were at 380 when I first installed them and they were at 390 when I checked them again. That was with the old PT. The next day, I installed the new PT. I fired it up and the plate volatges read about 475. I rebiased it, played for about an hour. The next day I went to play some more and that is when I noticed the red on V4. I decided to try the new tubes and resistor, and you know the rest. I just don't get why the plate voltage has went so high on those though. For comparison, the JJ's were about 472 when I first installed them and as seen above now read at 482. I know some drift is normal for new tubes, but 497 just seems a little high. Like I said, maybe the EH's are defective and the JJ's just redplated because I couldn't get the bias low enough. I just hope this isn't due to the new PT, I really like the way it opened my amp up. Plus I can't take it back because I cut the leads! I just don't think its that because I can get the EH's to bias in spec and V4 is still red.

To answer your other question Jon, I have a 47k and a 10k in series with my bias pot. I will switch out the 47 for a 56 and see if I can get the JJ's to bias correctly. If I can and they don't redplate, the I guess I can assume the EH's were faulty. Like I said, the only thing I don't get is if I had the JJ's with too much current, why didn't both tubes redplate? If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, PLEASE let me know.
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Post by flemingmras » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:43 pm

Something else I just thought of too, you might have a leaky coupling cap, the one that's coming off of the 82K resistor that feeds V4. Try changing that and see what happens.

Yes 38mA is way too high. Typically on a 485 volt plate voltage I like to see about 34-35mA plate current. I bias more toward the 34mA side since I run mine on a power soak fully cranked.

Try changing that cap and let me know what happens. Also, check the value of the grid swamper resistor(the 5.6K connected to pin 5) and make sure that and the 220K grid load resistors read to spec.

If all that looks good and changing the coupling caps doesn't help, try changing the tube socket as it could very well be arcing for all we know.

If nothing here fixes it, then it's probably gonna be your output transformer since there's nothing else in the amp that can cause this. But let's rule all the above mentioned cheap and simple things first before we go that route.

Jon
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Post by Zoso » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:43 am

Well, I hopefully have this thing licked. I put the 56k resistor in the bias circuit and biased the JJ's at 34mA. I played at full crank for about an hour and no redplating! So I guess it was the EH tubes all along. Once I was able to bias the JJ's better, they seemed to do fine. :lol:

After all this, I can definitely look at the positive. I learned a little more about how my amp works, I learned a better biasing technique, and I got to compare JJ's to EH's. The EH's seemed a little more open and singing, but the JJ's seemed a little fuller overall. I really like them both, but after this experience I will probably stick with JJ's! :D Plus, I got the experience of putting in a new PT and actually getting it to work. I was a little nervous when all this started that it was at fault.
Now all I have to do is get a set of Sozo's from George (which I will be ordering in a few weeks after we get moved into our new house) and recap the amp and I think I will have tonal heaven. I actually think the amp sounds better after just changing out that bias resistor! I'm sure its just me, but I'd swear I can hear the amp open up and sing even more than when I first changed the PT, and I thought it opened up and got a little punchier then. Go figure.

Anyway, thanks Jon for all your help and thanks George for having a kick ass place like this where idiots like me can come and get help. :wink:
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Post by Zoso » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:02 am

Oh yeah, one more question about the PT. (I just want to make sure it is OK since this is my first attempt at installing one)
Is it normal after about an hour playing for the PT to be extremely hot? I looked at it, and I don't see any wax pottong leaking out of it and I don't smell any burning, so I'm assuming all is well, but I just want to make sure. I know this is a stupid question, but I don't want to fry my whole amp cause I did something wrong. :oops:
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Post by flemingmras » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:10 am

Yep, especially if you're playing that sucker at full crank like we do. After a 4 hour show, you can't even touch my power transformer or my output transformer for at least an hour.

This is just an idication that you're properly playing your amp!

Jon
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Post by Zoso » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:51 am

flemingmras wrote:Yep, especially if you're playing that sucker at full crank like we do. After a 4 hour show, you can't even touch my power transformer or my output transformer for at least an hour.

This is just an idication that you're properly playing your amp!

Jon

:lol: :D :lol:

Thanks again for all your help. Like I said, it was a great learning process, but I'm ready to lay off the learning for a little while and just start playing! 8)
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Post by Country Boy Shane » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:25 am

Zoso wrote:
flemingmras wrote:Yep, especially if you're playing that sucker at full crank like we do. After a 4 hour show, you can't even touch my power transformer or my output transformer for at least an hour.

This is just an idication that you're properly playing your amp!

Jon

:lol: :D :lol:

Thanks again for all your help. Like I said, it was a great learning process, but I'm ready to lay off the learning for a little while and just start playing! 8)
Now that's what i'm talking about. My favorite thing to do myself.
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